[Rhodes22-list] Herb's Response

Thu Nov 20 14:19:35 EST 2008

Herb,

I understand and I agree with you.  I did not mean to suggest that you
were being irrational.  But you got the point because you said:

"It may be 'stooping to the same level', it may be unnecessary, it may (and
probably does) escalate things, but it's not irrational. Countering a
personal attack with another one is not only rational, it can often be
instructional. And, it's a very good release mechanism."

Therefore, what I meant to suggest is that as smart a person as you
obviously are, I believe you could find a way to instructionally counter
what you perceive to be a personal attack without stooping to the same
level or escalating things while still satisfying your release mechanism. 
I've read all of your posts over the last two months.  I know you have the
intellect and the capability.  The only question is whether you have the
desire.  Why not give it a try?  I don't see any downside.

Paul

> Actually, I worded that deliberately. If someone chooses to take a
> person's view, and attack them personally for their view, that attack
> may or may not be "rational". Here's examples:
>
> John Doe says "Historically, more white collar crimes are committed by
> white people". Responding to that by saying "John, you're a racist"
> would be irrational. The view does not fit the comment, because John is
> merely repeating a fact.
>
> However, if John Doe says "I hate all those white people", it would NOT
> be irrational to say "John, you're a racist", since his his view is a
> racist view.
>
> At the same time, a personal "counter attack" is NOT irrational. It may
> be "stooping to the same level", it may be unnecessary, it may (and
> probably does) escalate things, but it's not irrational. Countering a
> personal attack with another one is not only rational, it can often be
> instructional. And, it's a very good release mechanism.
>
> I would say that those that are offended by such things would be well
> served not to BEGIN them. I will also so, you are the exception to the
> rule on here, and frankly, one of the few I've seen that really has a
> reason to complain.
>
>
> pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net wrote:
>> Herb,
>>
>> If you are a rational person (and I think you are), why wouldn't you
>> always repond rationally regardless of what the other person does or
>> says?
>>  Are you saying in a way that you are more than willing to stoop to
>> someone else's level?  If so, I think you are demeaning yourself.
>> Perhaps
>> that's why some of these things sometimes spin out of control.  Stay
>> above
>> the fray.  You're better than that.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>> Apology accepted with one small note. If you were to go back and look
>>> closer at my previous emails, I believe you'd see little change in what
>>> I'm "doing of late". I respond to rational discussions rationally. I
>>> respond to irrational ones in a way I feel appropriate.
>>>
>>> Robert Skinner wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are right, Hank.  When I reviewed the exchange,
>>>> it was clear that I misunderstood Hank's message.
>>>> I went over the line, and owe Herb an apology.
>>>>
>>>> Herb, of late you have been easier to take, and
>>>> your message was rational.  I am in the wrong.
>>>>
>>>> /Robert
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>> Hank wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to call foul on this one.  Herb came back with a reasonable
>>>>> response
>>>>> to your email, did not attack you, was calm and cool, and then you
>>>>> get
>>>>> huffy
>>>>> and complain?  You have just lost any credibility or right to bitch
>>>>> about
>>>>> anyone else's posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hank
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Robert Skinner
>>>>> <Robert at squirrelhaven.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, you got the last word - a lot of last words...
>>>>>> You win.  I have no further desire to talk to you.
>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mandate? I wasn't talking about a mandate, I was talking about
>>>>>>> Palin
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> fading off into the sunset.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not a big believer in the "mandate" stuff. A politician is
>>>>>>> elected.
>>>>>>> It doesn't matter if he's elected by a 1% margin, or a 90% margin,
>>>>>>> he's
>>>>>>> elected, and he needs to start fulfilling the promises and
>>>>>>> commitments
>>>>>>> he made to those that elected him. If Obama can do that, I'll be
>>>>>>> surprised. I don't think he can, nor do I think he will. That's why
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>> not particularly upset by the results.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He made a lot of overt commitments that I don't think he will be
>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> keep, and that's not even considering all the "implied" promises.
>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> elected on a campaign of "let's take it away from the minority and
>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>> it to the majority", and LOTS of people are expecting more than he
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> be able to deliver. Don't pooh pooh those accounts of people
>>>>>>> reporting
>>>>>>> about how happy they are that he's going to take care of their gas
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>> and their mortgages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then add to that the possible disaster that I see looming in
>>>>>>> Iraq/Afghanistan. There's no doubt that the "implied promise" was
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> he will get us out of Iraq, and begin fighting in Afghanistan and
>>>>>>> deliver up Bin Laden.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If he pulls out of Iraq fast enough to suit his left wing
>>>>>>> followers,
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> will make Vietnam look like a policy masterpiece. We will literally
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> pulling snatching victory away. If Iraq then falls into a mess like
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> happened in Vietnam, shame shame shame (I had a typo there that I
>>>>>>> corrected, but it still fits - same shame shame).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then, we go into Afghanistan, and have the same resounding
>>>>>>> "success"
>>>>>>> enjoyed by the Russians. I don't believe we have the stomach as a
>>>>>>> nation
>>>>>>> to fight a man to man ground war that is required in the mountains
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> Afghanistan. If we won't let our military succeed in Iraq, we
>>>>>>> surely
>>>>>>> will not in Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, do you REALLY think he's going to deliver up Bin Laden?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suspect we're going to be hearing a LOT of "We may not succeed in
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> term..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope though, that people have a good memory. I know I did when I
>>>>>>> didn't vote for "read my lips" President Bush '41.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I said, no mandate needed. He just needs to start doing what he
>>>>>>> promised to do. I think the next two years are going to be
>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope that the voters
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert Skinner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When it comes to mandates, he has done
>>>>>>>> a lot better than his predecessor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are undeniable advantages to verbal
>>>>>>>> skills when communicating -- a talent
>>>>>>>> conspicuous in its absence in Bush.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As to Reagan, at least he could string a
>>>>>>>> few words together without tripping on
>>>>>>>> his tongue -- that was my point.  It
>>>>>>>> served him well in negotiations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> /Robert
>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You DO understand the difference between an orator, and someone
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> oratory skills. Surely you're not saying that after hearing
>>>>>>>>> Palin's
>>>>>>>>> speech to the RNC that she had NO oratory skills?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How does having (or not having) an oratory ability reflect a lack
>>>>>>>>> (or
>>>>>>>>> existence) of anti-intellectual attitudes?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry Robert, your guy won the election, but he did not receive a
>>>>>>>>> mandate for the rest of the world to blindly become like him and
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> he
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> represents.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again, you used Reagan as an example, but you seem to overlook
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> "deep thinkers" and intellectual community were saying about him
>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For all of Carter's deep thinking and oratory abilities, he let a
>>>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>>>> of "students" hold us hostage for over a year. My personal result
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> our
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> actions during that disgraceful period were in a large part
>>>>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>>>>> for 9-11.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Take those radicals, who we were TOTALLY unsuccessful in dealing
>>>>>>>>> with,
>>>>>>>>> and multiply them by 10 fold. THAT is what the orator and deep
>>>>>>>>> thinker
>>>>>>>>> is going to deal with. That's OK though, because he's already
>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> clear that he's willing to sit down with any of them and "talk".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We'll see what the oratory and talk gets us.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Robert Skinner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Herb, I think that a person who has some oratory
>>>>>>>>>> skills will be a help in negotiations with the
>>>>>>>>>> international community.  They do not have the
>>>>>>>>>> anti-intellectual attitude that has been anything
>>>>>>>>>> but an asset as we interact with the world's best
>>>>>>>>>> brains.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> /Robert
>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brad,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Robtert (and others like him) are looking at Palin from the far
>>>>>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>>>>>> view. They're somehow under the illusion that we WANT an
>>>>>>>>>>> "orator"
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "deep thinker". It's funny the two he compared her (negatively)
>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>> Regan, who the Democrats lambasted much the same way they did
>>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>>> (remember when he talked about Star Wars defense, and they
>>>>>>>>>>> started
>>>>>>>>>>> derisively calling him Ray-Gun?), and President Jimmy Carter.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carter!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, a great orator, a great guy in general, a good Christian
>>>>>>>>>>> man,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> joke of a President. If that's what oratory ability and deep
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>> gets us, give me the common man (or woman) instead!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, it seems you've bought into the MSM meme and haven't
>>>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>> own homework.  I suggest you do your own due diligence on Gov.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Palin's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> very real accomplishments before you let other people do your
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> for you.  Unlike Obama's long string of failures in Chicago,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Palin
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> point to real successes.  Frankly, I'm not impressed by a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>> degree in law or anything else.  For the sake of the country,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> wish
>>>>>>>>>>>> for a successful Obama Presidency.  As for me and my family,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "we're
>>>>>>>>>>>> loaded for bear".  How anyone can believe that a leader with a
>>>>>>>>>>>> mediocre track record following failed economic themes can be
>>>>>>>>>>>> successful is beyond me.  No one will be more happily
>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> all works out OK than myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Robert Skinner
>>>>>>>>>>>> <Robert at squirrelhaven.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly, she is no "Great Communicator."
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We will never see "Bedtime for Palin."
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nor, I suspect, will we hear about a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carteresque "lusting in the heart."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, Brad.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But is too early to expect that Bambizilla
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will retire from the political scene.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that the GOP spinsters will find
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some way to use her, perhaps as a contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a straw woman, to a real Republican orator
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or deep thinker to spark up the 2012 campaign.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But for the next two years, I hope, we can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> get working on the nation's business.  We can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hope that Obama can calm the fears and tame
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the chaos of an economy headed for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dumpster.  We will also see if he can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> extricate us gracefully from Iraq and succeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in bringing down the terrorist franchises.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hoping,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Robert
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben Cittadino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rummy;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Very cute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And now....before she fades into the sunset, some final
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Palin....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "My concern has been the atrocities there in Darfur and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> relevance to me
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with that issue as we spoke about Africa and some of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> there
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that were kind of the people succumbing to the dictators and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> corruption
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of some collapsed governments on the continent, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relevance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alaska's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investment in Darfur with some of our permanent fund
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, she concluded, "never, ever did I talk about, well,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gee,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> it a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> country or a continent, I just don't know about this issue."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know, I know... her heart is in the right place (and so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> few other
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parts).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R22RumRunner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No Hard Feelings...to the democrats
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The election day is  over,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The talking is done.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My party lost, your  party won.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So let us be friends,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let arguments  pass.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll hug my elephant,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You kiss your  ass.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more!(
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>> --
>>> Herb Parsons
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
> --
> Herb Parsons
>
> __________________________________________________
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