[Rhodes22-list] Herb's Response

Herb Parsons hparsons at parsonsys.com
Thu Nov 20 14:32:12 EST 2008


Much like the political mood of the country, my moods swing different 
ways. While you have been reading the posts the last two months, you 
missed those before that. Those where, attempts at rational discussion 
were met with "religious kook" and "racist" and, one of my all time 
favorites "democrats are the thinkers and debaters, republicans are the 
just believers". Attempts at rational discussion were one-sided. I would 
ask what made one a religious kook, and was just met with additional 
abuse. I would ask how my view made me racist, and simply be met with 
more abuse. Eventually, I decided to agree with Elle's (as of that time 
unvoiced opinion) that sometimes the "c" works.

But, I'll play nicely. I'll always play at least as nice, and may even 
go the extra step for a while.


pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net wrote:
> Herb,
>
> I understand and I agree with you.  I did not mean to suggest that you
> were being irrational.  But you got the point because you said:
>
> "It may be 'stooping to the same level', it may be unnecessary, it may (and
> probably does) escalate things, but it's not irrational. Countering a
> personal attack with another one is not only rational, it can often be
> instructional. And, it's a very good release mechanism."
>
> Therefore, what I meant to suggest is that as smart a person as you
> obviously are, I believe you could find a way to instructionally counter
> what you perceive to be a personal attack without stooping to the same
> level or escalating things while still satisfying your release mechanism. 
> I've read all of your posts over the last two months.  I know you have the
> intellect and the capability.  The only question is whether you have the
> desire.  Why not give it a try?  I don't see any downside.
>
> Paul
>
>   
>> Actually, I worded that deliberately. If someone chooses to take a
>> person's view, and attack them personally for their view, that attack
>> may or may not be "rational". Here's examples:
>>
>> John Doe says "Historically, more white collar crimes are committed by
>> white people". Responding to that by saying "John, you're a racist"
>> would be irrational. The view does not fit the comment, because John is
>> merely repeating a fact.
>>
>> However, if John Doe says "I hate all those white people", it would NOT
>> be irrational to say "John, you're a racist", since his his view is a
>> racist view.
>>
>> At the same time, a personal "counter attack" is NOT irrational. It may
>> be "stooping to the same level", it may be unnecessary, it may (and
>> probably does) escalate things, but it's not irrational. Countering a
>> personal attack with another one is not only rational, it can often be
>> instructional. And, it's a very good release mechanism.
>>
>> I would say that those that are offended by such things would be well
>> served not to BEGIN them. I will also so, you are the exception to the
>> rule on here, and frankly, one of the few I've seen that really has a
>> reason to complain.
>>
>>
>> pdgrand at nospam.wmis.net wrote:
>>     
>>> Herb,
>>>
>>> If you are a rational person (and I think you are), why wouldn't you
>>> always repond rationally regardless of what the other person does or
>>> says?
>>>  Are you saying in a way that you are more than willing to stoop to
>>> someone else's level?  If so, I think you are demeaning yourself.
>>> Perhaps
>>> that's why some of these things sometimes spin out of control.  Stay
>>> above
>>> the fray.  You're better than that.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Apology accepted with one small note. If you were to go back and look
>>>> closer at my previous emails, I believe you'd see little change in what
>>>> I'm "doing of late". I respond to rational discussions rationally. I
>>>> respond to irrational ones in a way I feel appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> Robert Skinner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> You are right, Hank.  When I reviewed the exchange,
>>>>> it was clear that I misunderstood Hank's message.
>>>>> I went over the line, and owe Herb an apology.
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb, of late you have been easier to take, and
>>>>> your message was rational.  I am in the wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Robert
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Hank wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have to call foul on this one.  Herb came back with a reasonable
>>>>>> response
>>>>>> to your email, did not attack you, was calm and cool, and then you
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> huffy
>>>>>> and complain?  You have just lost any credibility or right to bitch
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> anyone else's posts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hank
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:50 PM, Robert Skinner
>>>>>> <Robert at squirrelhaven.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> OK, you got the last word - a lot of last words...
>>>>>>> You win.  I have no further desire to talk to you.
>>>>>>> Satisfied?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> /Robert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> Mandate? I wasn't talking about a mandate, I was talking about
>>>>>>>> Palin
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> fading off into the sunset.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not a big believer in the "mandate" stuff. A politician is
>>>>>>>> elected.
>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter if he's elected by a 1% margin, or a 90% margin,
>>>>>>>> he's
>>>>>>>> elected, and he needs to start fulfilling the promises and
>>>>>>>> commitments
>>>>>>>> he made to those that elected him. If Obama can do that, I'll be
>>>>>>>> surprised. I don't think he can, nor do I think he will. That's why
>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>> not particularly upset by the results.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He made a lot of overt commitments that I don't think he will be
>>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> keep, and that's not even considering all the "implied" promises.
>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> elected on a campaign of "let's take it away from the minority and
>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>> it to the majority", and LOTS of people are expecting more than he
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> be able to deliver. Don't pooh pooh those accounts of people
>>>>>>>> reporting
>>>>>>>> about how happy they are that he's going to take care of their gas
>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>> and their mortgages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then add to that the possible disaster that I see looming in
>>>>>>>> Iraq/Afghanistan. There's no doubt that the "implied promise" was
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> he will get us out of Iraq, and begin fighting in Afghanistan and
>>>>>>>> deliver up Bin Laden.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If he pulls out of Iraq fast enough to suit his left wing
>>>>>>>> followers,
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> will make Vietnam look like a policy masterpiece. We will literally
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> pulling snatching victory away. If Iraq then falls into a mess like
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> happened in Vietnam, shame shame shame (I had a typo there that I
>>>>>>>> corrected, but it still fits - same shame shame).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then, we go into Afghanistan, and have the same resounding
>>>>>>>> "success"
>>>>>>>> enjoyed by the Russians. I don't believe we have the stomach as a
>>>>>>>> nation
>>>>>>>> to fight a man to man ground war that is required in the mountains
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> Afghanistan. If we won't let our military succeed in Iraq, we
>>>>>>>> surely
>>>>>>>> will not in Afghanistan.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And, do you REALLY think he's going to deliver up Bin Laden?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suspect we're going to be hearing a LOT of "We may not succeed in
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> term..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope though, that people have a good memory. I know I did when I
>>>>>>>> didn't vote for "read my lips" President Bush '41.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I said, no mandate needed. He just needs to start doing what he
>>>>>>>> promised to do. I think the next two years are going to be
>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope that the voters
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Robert Skinner wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> When it comes to mandates, he has done
>>>>>>>>> a lot better than his predecessor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are undeniable advantages to verbal
>>>>>>>>> skills when communicating -- a talent
>>>>>>>>> conspicuous in its absence in Bush.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As to Reagan, at least he could string a
>>>>>>>>> few words together without tripping on
>>>>>>>>> his tongue -- that was my point.  It
>>>>>>>>> served him well in negotiations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> /Robert
>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> You DO understand the difference between an orator, and someone
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> oratory skills. Surely you're not saying that after hearing
>>>>>>>>>> Palin's
>>>>>>>>>> speech to the RNC that she had NO oratory skills?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How does having (or not having) an oratory ability reflect a lack
>>>>>>>>>> (or
>>>>>>>>>> existence) of anti-intellectual attitudes?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry Robert, your guy won the election, but he did not receive a
>>>>>>>>>> mandate for the rest of the world to blindly become like him and
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>> represents.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Again, you used Reagan as an example, but you seem to overlook
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> "deep thinkers" and intellectual community were saying about him
>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>> then.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>> For all of Carter's deep thinking and oratory abilities, he let a
>>>>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>>>>> of "students" hold us hostage for over a year. My personal result
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>> actions during that disgraceful period were in a large part
>>>>>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>>>>>> for 9-11.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Take those radicals, who we were TOTALLY unsuccessful in dealing
>>>>>>>>>> with,
>>>>>>>>>> and multiply them by 10 fold. THAT is what the orator and deep
>>>>>>>>>> thinker
>>>>>>>>>> is going to deal with. That's OK though, because he's already
>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> clear that he's willing to sit down with any of them and "talk".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We'll see what the oratory and talk gets us.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Robert Skinner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>> Herb, I think that a person who has some oratory
>>>>>>>>>>> skills will be a help in negotiations with the
>>>>>>>>>>> international community.  They do not have the
>>>>>>>>>>> anti-intellectual attitude that has been anything
>>>>>>>>>>> but an asset as we interact with the world's best
>>>>>>>>>>> brains.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> /Robert
>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Herb Parsons wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Robtert (and others like him) are looking at Palin from the far
>>>>>>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>>>>>>> view. They're somehow under the illusion that we WANT an
>>>>>>>>>>>> "orator"
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>> "deep thinker". It's funny the two he compared her (negatively)
>>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regan, who the Democrats lambasted much the same way they did
>>>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>>>> (remember when he talked about Star Wars defense, and they
>>>>>>>>>>>> started
>>>>>>>>>>>> derisively calling him Ray-Gun?), and President Jimmy Carter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>> Carter!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, a great orator, a great guy in general, a good Christian
>>>>>>>>>>>> man,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>> and a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>> joke of a President. If that's what oratory ability and deep
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>> gets us, give me the common man (or woman) instead!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, it seems you've bought into the MSM meme and haven't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> own homework.  I suggest you do your own due diligence on Gov.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>> Palin's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>> very real accomplishments before you let other people do your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for you.  Unlike Obama's long string of failures in Chicago,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Palin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>> point to real successes.  Frankly, I'm not impressed by a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> degree in law or anything else.  For the sake of the country,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a successful Obama Presidency.  As for me and my family,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>> loaded for bear".  How anyone can believe that a leader with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mediocre track record following failed economic themes can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> successful is beyond me.  No one will be more happily
>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all works out OK than myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Robert Skinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Robert at squirrelhaven.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly, she is no "Great Communicator."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We will never see "Bedtime for Palin."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nor, I suspect, will we hear about a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carteresque "lusting in the heart."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, Brad.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But is too early to expect that Bambizilla
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will retire from the political scene.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that the GOP spinsters will find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some way to use her, perhaps as a contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a straw woman, to a real Republican orator
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or deep thinker to spark up the 2012 campaign.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But for the next two years, I hope, we can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get working on the nation's business.  We can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hope that Obama can calm the fears and tame
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the chaos of an economy headed for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dumpster.  We will also see if he can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extricate us gracefully from Iraq and succeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in bringing down the terrorist franchises.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hoping,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Robert
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben Cittadino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rummy;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Very cute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And now....before she fades into the sunset, some final
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Palin....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "My concern has been the atrocities there in Darfur and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>> relevance to me
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with that issue as we spoke about Africa and some of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> countries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that were kind of the people succumbing to the dictators and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>> corruption
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of some collapsed governments on the continent, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relevance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>> Alaska's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investment in Darfur with some of our permanent fund
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, she concluded, "never, ever did I talk about, well,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gee,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>> it a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> country or a continent, I just don't know about this issue."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know, I know... her heart is in the right place (and so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>> few other
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parts).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben C.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R22RumRunner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No Hard Feelings...to the democrats
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The election day is  over,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The talking is done.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My party lost, your  party won.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So let us be friends,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let arguments  pass.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll hug my elephant,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You kiss your  ass.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theaters,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                 
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                 
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                 
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                 
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>                           
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>>>>>>             
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>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> --
>>>> Herb Parsons
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>       
>> --
>> Herb Parsons
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>>     
>
>
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>   

-- 
Herb Parsons



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