[Rhodes22-list] History

[elle]

Hear, hear.. Good going, thena.

elle

We can't change the angle of the wind....but we can adjust our sails.

1992 Rhodes 22   Recyc '06  "WaterMusic"   (Lady in Red)


--- On Thu, 1/1/09, Thena Carville <thenacarville at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> From: Thena Carville <thenacarville at bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] History
> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 10:14 AM
> This is the history as I remember it as well...I joined
> several of the lists
> on Sailnet and the rhodes group was the
> friendliest...several of the members
> felt like good friends after a while...Rummy, Sail Pappy,
> Steve, Alex and
> his lovely Pamela and of course Michael...we were having
> difficulty with
> Sailnet and Michael said he could set up the list for
> us...we ASKED him to
> do it...we WANTED him to set it up and he was definitely in
> charge (also his
> nickel)...we were friends and we treated each other like
> friends...we
> behaved more like we were in the home of a friend, not a
> bar...perhaps that
> is where we made our mistake...I much prefer the idea of
> keeping in mind we
> are in the HOME of someone we know and like...rude is rude
> and it simply
> doesn't need to be like that...once someone behaves
> badly, you wonder about
> having him back in your home...and no one asked you to join
> the list or even
> post to the list...it is all voluntary contributions...the
> idea was to
> "share" knowledge and enjoy the company of people
> who share a common
> interest...well, several common interests, actually...if
> you want to
> communicate with some one person in particular, we ALWAYS
> went off list...if
> we didn't think everyone would be interested, we
> communicated directly with
> the person we wanted to communicate with...sometimes people
> would get out of
> hand, but when called on it, they would either calm it down
> or remove
> themselves, Michael did not have to do it...or then perhaps
> he did, I was
> just always of the opinion he just asked them nicely and
> they did the right
> thing...I like to think the best of people...we did not
> always stay on topic
> and were quick to share something funny or amusing or
> thoughtful with the
> group...the spirit of the exchanges have changed and not
> for the
> better...several times lately I have gotten so disgusted I
> was ready to
> leave, but did not, hoping it would get better...I do not
> see the changes
> Michael and John have suggested as being harmful or
> detrimental but as a
> welcome "change of tone" for the people who wish
> to belong to a group of
> friends...if you no longer wish to participate, so be
> it...but frankly, this
> is OUR list and we want it back...
> Thena
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of
> Mary Lou Troy
> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:27 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] History
> 
> 
> Here's the history as I remember it dating at least to
> early 1998.
> Similar to Bill's but differing in a few key factors.
> (If people are
> going to be using the archives for list history I figured I
> ought to
> post the history as I remember it.)
> 
> I believe the early list was a Sail-net email list. Sailnet
> was
> founded in 1994. I don't know when they started their
> email lists. I
> think I found the Rhodes list about the same time we
> purchased
> Fretless in the Spring of 1998 maybe a bit before. It was
> not a
> Rhodes 22 list but a list for admirers and owners of any
> Rhodes
> designed boat. The R22 owners quickly overwhelmed the list
> and it
> became a de facto R22 list. We were delighted to find each
> other. If
> there was another  email list before that, it was not a
> link on the
> GB website in early 1996 when we started looking at the
> R22. There
> was evidently a print R22 Owners Association newsletter
> that ceased
> publication in 1991. Sailnet changed owners several times
> with
> impacts on email list reliability and the rules for the
> list. At some
> point (2002) our esteemed Michael Meltzer (who did indeed
> help GB get
> into the web business in the 90s and was a long-time R22
> owner)
> offered to host the list on his server. He put it together
> in one
> night using the rhodes22.org domain which he had already
> used in
> setting up the Rhodes owners site on his server. That was
> the genesis
> of the current list. For a while people were on both lists
> but
> eventually the Sailnet traffic withered away and Sailnet
> got rid of
> their email lists completely earlier this year. They still
> have
> forums (bulletin boards) and there is still a Rhodes forum
> there.
> 
> In the early days of the list there were several gatherings
> of Rhodes
> owners (and wannabees). There was a memorable dinner at
> Carroll's
> Creek Restaurant and another at Buddy's in Annapolis
> after the Boat
> Show. I remember Cam Whetstone carrying his new centerboard
> cap
> around as we waited to get in and Michael Meltzer checking
> email on
> his laptop long before any of the rest of us had heard of
> aircards.
> This was followed by a couple years when Jan Eyres (event
> planner
> extraordinaire) and I (but mostly Jan) planned an after
> hours catered
> dinner at the Annapolis Boat Show. Michael arranged the
> passes to get
> us in after-hours. Somewhere I still have the pics from
> that. There
> was a memorable gathering at Kentucky Lake. We didn't
> go but it is
> memorialized with pics on the Rhodes owners website. There
> was a
> marriage. There were a couple of gatherings on the
> Chesapeake as well
> as well as several mid-winter Chesapeake PlanJams - the
> last at my
> house last January with 30 some people. At this year's
> Boat
> Show  (and last year's) we had lunch with Rhodes owners
> from the list
> in a mini-gathering organized on the list. These things
> won't happen
> if people sign off the list because of the content or the
> tone of the
> conversations.
> 
> In the early days, if there were angry outbursts and hard
> feelings
> they mostly went off list. One person (maybe two) did get
> banned when
> they couldn't abide by the charter. It was
> Michael's call. It was his
> list. Bill is right that Stan used to send people to the
> list but I
> don't think Stan ever claimed ownership. I know that we
> all have felt
> a great deal of gratitude to Stan for continuing to build
> and recycle
> the boats that we sail with such pleasure. For the most
> part we have
> tried to be helpful to General Boats. My guess is that the
> link to
> the list came off the GB website when politics started
> getting ugly.
> I'm pretty sure Stan still sends people to the list but
> probably only
> after they have bought the boat or at least have made the
> decision to
> buy the boat.
> 
> The list charter was a group effort by members of the list
> to make
> rules that we could live with and still get along with each
> other to
> everyone's benefit.
> 
> Rummy, who just left the list, through his own good efforts
> compiled
> an owners list that was available to any member in good
> standing of
> that list. It was invaluable as we got to know each other.
> When Rummy
> decided to pack it in, I volunteered to take on the owners
> list but
> life intervened and I didn't get to it. By the time I
> was ready to
> take up the effort the political problems were in full
> swing and I
> wasn't feeling all that eager (not a good excuse just
> the truth about
> how I felt at the time). If the list becomes tolerable
> again, maybe
> I'll make another attempt.
> 
> Mary Lou
> 1991 R22  Fretless
> Rock Hall, MD
> 
> 
> At 12:06 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
> >That's good history to know.
> >When I signed up about 2 years ago, (that seams to be
> when it started
> >downhill) I was refered to by Stan also. I saw all the
> political crap & was
> >dissappointed....and said so. I got a shorter version
> of the same
> >explanation & then understood. I was told this was
> not Stans list....by
> >Stan.
> >I agree with you nothing should be done different, the
> charter covers it.
> My
> >problem is that some people insult you in such a nice
> way, it's allowed
> ...&
> >when someone comes right out & says it, it's a
> bad thing. I was disgusted
> by
> >some of the things said about our last President, I
> just as disgusted that
> >some people won't even give the new one a chance.
> >Jb
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:32 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello
> Sheriff?
> >
> >
> > > Jb,
> > >
> > > Michael built and maintained Stan's website. 
> In return, Stan would tow
> > > Michael's boat to Edenton every winter,
> upgrade it, install "test"
> > > equipment, bottom paint it, and get it back to
> Michael in time for an
> > > early launch.
> > >
> > > At some point, Michael suggested the formation of
> an email group so that
> > > people could ask each other all the questions
> that Stan couldn't
> > > possibly respond to...even if he owned a
> computer, and knew how to use
> it.
> > >
> > > Michael put links on Stan's website so both
> existing owners and newbies
> > > could find "da list".  (Remember,
> Google is only 10 years old -- it was
> > > difficult for anyone other than a computer geek
> to find anything on the
> > > Internet, and email lists were not indexed.) 
> Almost everyone who got on
> > > "da list" at that time was sent here by
> Stan, both from his website and
> > > from in-person recommendations both before and
> after boat purchases.
> > >
> > > I know I got here because Stan suggested I could
> learn a lot from people
> > > on the list.  I know many others who got here the
> same way.
> > >
> > > Michael is one of the smartest people on the
> planet.  In the early days,
> > > he would answer 9 out of 10 questions asked.  He
> talked to Stan
> > > regularly, and when he didn't know the
> answer, and felt it was a good
> > > question, he would call Stan after hours and come
> up with the technical
> > > information the rest of us sought.
> > >
> > > We hopped onto the Sailnet list server at some
> point.  They wanted to be
> > > a web portal for sailers.  They offered free
> list-hosting.  As they grew
> > > they encountered growing pains.  They switched
> software, and lost
> > > everyone on the list in the process.  Those of us
> who cared, contacted
> > > everyone else back-channel and told them what had
> happened and what they
> > > had to do to get back on the list.  I believe we
> had 34 members at that
> > > point.
> > >
> > > Then Sailnet started selling things, and made a
> rule that no one else
> > > could sell anything on any list they hosted. 
> Then they started
> > > monitoring lists to enforce the rule, and
> bouncing out people who
> > > violated their rule.
> > >
> > > We started looking for another way to run our
> list, and Michael came up
> > > with the Mailman Program which he hosted and
> maintained as
> administrator.
> > >
> > > At some point Stan learned to use a computer, and
> started providing
> > > information directly to the list. What a treat! 
> When somebody got
> > > something wrong, or had a better way to solve a
> problem, the guy who
> > > built the boat would actually discuss the issue
> on an open forum!
> > >
> > > Michael was plugged into the blogging community
> before anyone used the
> > > word "blog".  He would get jokes, and
> "insider info" and post it to the
> > > list long before any other sailor had access to
> what he posted.  Some
> > > complained that it was "off-topic" but
> Stan always said he loved it, and
> > > didn't give a damn if anyone didn't think
> it was funny, or disagreed
> > > with anyone else's political views.  And, he
> said, living in Edenton, he
> > > wasn't locally exposed to a lot of cultural
> stuff he took for granted
> > > living near NYC.
> > >
> > > "Bring it on" said Stan, "and
> don't worry about killing a boat
> > > sale--this is much more fun--be yourself--respect
> each other--Michael
> > > taught me how to use the delete key."
> > >
> > > Food fights would erupt from time to time over
> the exact same issues.
> > > Politics and Religion were both banned at some
> point, so people started
> > > inserting their political views in the form of
> often vicious jokes.  The
> > > only way anyone could object to the joke was to
> explain it in political
> > > terms. The prohibition against Politics was
> dropped with the mandate
> > > that all political discussion had to be preceded
> on the subject line by
> > > the word Politics:
> > >
> > > How to use filters to toss all email labeled
> "Politics:" into anyone's
> > > junk folder was repeatedly explained so that
> anyone not wishing to see
> > > this stuff would never even know others on the
> list were actively
> > > discussing these topics.
> > >
> > > Later, a rule was instituted mandating that
> Jokes: also appears on the
> > > subject line when the content is jokes.
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > At some point the list turned on Stan.  It
> wasn't anyone's fault, it was
> > > just the normal evolution of the Internet.
> > >
> > > Some of the people who had been with the list for
> a long time opted to
> > > purchase other boats. They started singing the
> praises of their boats,
> > > on Stan's list, and urging others to trade in
> Stan's boat for one
> > > bigger, or better, or more ostentatious.
> > >
> > > Then people who would never have been able to
> find each other started
> > > selling boats directly to each other, and cutting
> Stan out of the middle
> > > -- "Stan offered me $10,000 for this boat,
> so you know he's going to
> > > sell it for $20,000 -- I'll sell it to anyone
> on the list for $15,000."
> > >
> > > Then people started offering to fabricate parts
> for Stan's boat--"Send
> > > me the specifications on that trailer, and
> I'll make one for you for 1/2
> > > what Stan would charge."
> > >
> > > Over time they hijacked Stan's list.  Stan
> objected several times, and
> > > many people on the list went out of their way to
> only buy through Stan.
> > > But, in the end, Stan stopped participating on a
> regular basis, and took
> > > the list off his web site.
> > >
> > > But, it's still Stan's list, and Stan is
> still the common link for most
> > > of us.  He can't use it as a sales tool
> anymore, but he still can have
> > > fun with old friends...just as it says in the
> charter.
> > >
> > > I have posted the charter below so all can see
> what they signed up for,
> > > if they never took the time to read it
> previously.
> > >
> > > In prior years, Michael would post the Charter at
> this point--he wrote
> > > it, but he seems disinclined to do so, so here it
> is:
> > >
> > > *CHARTER*:  *rhodes22*-list at ...
> > >
> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=0>
> > >
> > > The *rhodes*-list at ...
> > >
> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=1>
> > > group will be  open to discussion of all
> > > subjects specifically referring to *Rhodes*
> sailboats  or  *Rhodes*
> > > sailors. The focus of this group includes, but is
> not limited  to:
> > >
> > > * Encouraging the understanding and discussion of
> *Rhodes* sailboats  or
> > > *Rhodes* sailors, in the many ways people wish to
> define it.
> > >
> > > * Acting  as a source of information for 
> *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*
> > > sailors  worldwide and for people planning  to
> buy/sell/repair/learn
> > > about *Rhodes*  sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors.
> > >
> > > * Providing a forum for the development and 
> promotion *Rhodes*
> sailboats
> > > or *Rhodes* sailors'  culture, history, 
> traditions and economy.
> > >
> > > * Any other subject that might be found at a 
> sailor's bar or the
> > > Clubhouse Bar, Including *Rhodes* sailboats or
> *Rhodes*  sailors'
> travels,
> > > events, family, jokes, quotations, pets, etc.
> > >
> > > * The  level of discussion does not have to be
> fit for a child, but
> > > some good taste  is expected.
> > >
> > > Binaries and Formatting: The posting of encoded
> binaries  (e.g.
> > > pictures, compressed files, etc.) to 
> *rhodes*-list at ...
> > >
> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=2>
> > > is  not
> > > allowed, the list server will remove them. Please
> use mixed case  when
> > > posting (Upper and lower case letters), typing
> words in  uppercase
> > > means you are SHOUTING.
> > >
> > > Quoting: Place new material at the  top of the
> post and quote what you
> > > are replying to below. That makes it  simple to
> find out what is being
> > > said. You are encouraged to edit down the  quoted
> material.
> > >
> > > HTML mail: Allot of the email programs (Netscape
> and  outlook) that can
> > > send their email with embedded HTML. Embedded
> HTML can  cause some of
> > > the list members to have trouble reading their
> mail due to  "browser
> > > wars", not reading their mail with a web
> browser and double  messages
> > > in digest mode. Member are encouraged to set
> their programs to  send
> > > "text" email.
> > >
> > > Subject Line: Please set or change the subject
> line  to reflect the
> > > true subject of the  post. for example
> "Subject: anchors"  might be
> > > turned into "Subject: gastank was
> anchors". If a joke (or  any
> > > questionable material) is being posted please
> indicate it on  the
> > > subject line, for example "Subject:
> Monday's Humor  (jokes)"
> > >
> > > Netiquette: Posts to the group are expected to be
> considerate of  other
> > > readers. Personal abuse, flames, and obscenities
> are  *not*
> > > appreciated; but we are sailors.......
> > >
> > > Anonymous email: It is  expected that users will
> provide their name in
> > > the email and will sign  same.  We like to know
> who we're talking to.
> > >
> > > Social  Interaction/Manners: To a certain extent,
> the interaction is
> > > about what you  would expect in any informal
> social setting, for
> > > example, a bar.  It is  recommended that you get
> to know people first
> > > and introduce yourself (about  the same social
> rules that you would use
> > > to meet any new group of people).  There is a
> high level of chitchat on
> > > the list, and what you might think is  insulting
> to a group or region
> > > might only be people kidding each other after 
> knowing them for years.
> > > As in any bar, the subjects of politics and
> religion  can lead to
> > > heated augments and bar fights. These might be
> best  avoided.
> > >
> > > The need to participate: It is recognized that a
> group is only  whoever
> > > post to it, no more and no less. We can only talk
> about what  people
> > > post about. You earn respect on the list by
> postings and trying  to
> > > help each other, you can not demand it. Most
> sailing topics we  have
> > > talked about already, We chit chat in the mean
> time waiting to  answer
> > > questions or a new subject/story.  If you want to
> know  something,
> > > please post it, the more detail the better. If
> someone is trying  to
> > > help you please answer their reasonable
> questions. If you can  help
> > > someone, again post it, Try to repay the
> knowledge you  gained.
> > >
> > > Bill Effros
> > >
> > > Jb wrote:
> > > > why do keep saying this is Stans list?
> > > > Jb
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bill Effros"
> <bill at effros.com>
> > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:53 PM
> > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the
> Jello Sheriff?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Michael,
> > > >>
> > > >> Who made you the Jello Sheriff?
> > > >>
> > > >> This is Stan's list, not yours, and
> he just told us he doesn't
> believe
> >a
> > > >> Jello Sheriff is required.
> > > >>
> > > >> Shall I tell you who I think is being a
> PITA?
> > > >>
> > > >> Do you think it will improve the list if
> everyone conforms to your
> >views
> > > >> of who is using "mean sprite"?
>  Only people who submit jokes you find
> > > >> funny can remain on the list?  If you
> don't laugh--they're out!
> > > >>
> > > >> Whatever happened to that rule about
> throwing people off the list if
> > > >> they don't own a Rhodes-22?
> > > >>
> > > >> How about syntax rules, and spelling
> rules?  That should be fun.
> > > >>
> > > >> Better drop the rule about people on ego
> trips.
> > > >>
> > > >> Of course, this charter change must be
> submitted to the entire list
> as
> > > >> per our charter.  Does Rummy still get a
> vote?  How about Ben?  How
> > > >> about people under your review?
> > > >>
> > > >> LOL,
> > > >>
> > > >> Your dear friend,
> > > >>
> > > >> Bill Effros
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> michael meltzer wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> He is the working idea.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 1)      Is the problem is not so
> much the off subject post, as long
> as
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> are entertaining there is no real
> issue, funny, informative, nice..
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 2)      The problem is the people
> using "mean sprite" , pounding on
> > > >>> people,
> > > >>> people on ego trips that they must
> change the world by changing the
> >view
> > > >>> of
> > > >>> the members, being a PITA
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> To that end.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 1)      in the short: people using
> "mean sprite" , pounding on
> people,
> > > >>> people on ego trips that they must
> change the world by changing the
> >view
> > > >>> of
> > > >>> the members. Can and will be
> suspended buy me and john at our whim,
> >using
> > > >>> current tools. Willing to listen to
> some group feedback but really
> >the
> > > >>> right to suspend and remove
> PITA's
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 2)      in the long term both me and
> john no not have the time for
> >this.
> > > >>> Thinking along the lines of a
> "trusted" group of people can
> numerated
> >a
> > > >>> poster for suspend/remove/band that
> a larger group of list members
> can
> > > >>> vote
> > > >>> on(the jury, maybe post #/length of
> time on the list weighted). Web
> >based
> > > >>> system. Me and john then become the
> "apples board. The real question
> >in
> > > >>> most
> > > >>> cases would be are you a PITA and
> worth it
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 3)      there is a question about a
> wiki(ben), we tried it once but
> >let's
> > > >>> try again, it could have broad
> applies
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> __________________________________________________
> > > >>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help
> with using the mailing list go
> to
> > > >>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>>
> __________________________________________________
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> __________________________________________________
> > > >> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help
> with using the mailing list go
> to
> > > >> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>
> __________________________________________________
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with
> using the mailing list go to
> >http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using
> the mailing list go to
> >http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the
> mailing list go
> >to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >__________________________________________________
> >
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
> >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 -
> Release Date:
> >12/31/2008 8:44 AM
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> __________________________________________________
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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