[Rhodes22-list] History
Steven Alm
stevenalm at gmail.com
Fri Jan 2 02:38:13 EST 2009
Bill,
Spare me the Jew shit. That just doesn't wash.
Slim
On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 11:20 PM, elle <watermusic38 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hear, hear.. Good going, thena.
>
> elle
>
> We can't change the angle of the wind....but we can adjust our sails.
>
> 1992 Rhodes 22 Recyc '06 "WaterMusic" (Lady in Red)
>
>
> --- On Thu, 1/1/09, Thena Carville <thenacarville at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > From: Thena Carville <thenacarville at bellsouth.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] History
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 10:14 AM
> > This is the history as I remember it as well...I joined
> > several of the lists
> > on Sailnet and the rhodes group was the
> > friendliest...several of the members
> > felt like good friends after a while...Rummy, Sail Pappy,
> > Steve, Alex and
> > his lovely Pamela and of course Michael...we were having
> > difficulty with
> > Sailnet and Michael said he could set up the list for
> > us...we ASKED him to
> > do it...we WANTED him to set it up and he was definitely in
> > charge (also his
> > nickel)...we were friends and we treated each other like
> > friends...we
> > behaved more like we were in the home of a friend, not a
> > bar...perhaps that
> > is where we made our mistake...I much prefer the idea of
> > keeping in mind we
> > are in the HOME of someone we know and like...rude is rude
> > and it simply
> > doesn't need to be like that...once someone behaves
> > badly, you wonder about
> > having him back in your home...and no one asked you to join
> > the list or even
> > post to the list...it is all voluntary contributions...the
> > idea was to
> > "share" knowledge and enjoy the company of people
> > who share a common
> > interest...well, several common interests, actually...if
> > you want to
> > communicate with some one person in particular, we ALWAYS
> > went off list...if
> > we didn't think everyone would be interested, we
> > communicated directly with
> > the person we wanted to communicate with...sometimes people
> > would get out of
> > hand, but when called on it, they would either calm it down
> > or remove
> > themselves, Michael did not have to do it...or then perhaps
> > he did, I was
> > just always of the opinion he just asked them nicely and
> > they did the right
> > thing...I like to think the best of people...we did not
> > always stay on topic
> > and were quick to share something funny or amusing or
> > thoughtful with the
> > group...the spirit of the exchanges have changed and not
> > for the
> > better...several times lately I have gotten so disgusted I
> > was ready to
> > leave, but did not, hoping it would get better...I do not
> > see the changes
> > Michael and John have suggested as being harmful or
> > detrimental but as a
> > welcome "change of tone" for the people who wish
> > to belong to a group of
> > friends...if you no longer wish to participate, so be
> > it...but frankly, this
> > is OUR list and we want it back...
> > Thena
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of
> > Mary Lou Troy
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:27 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] History
> >
> >
> > Here's the history as I remember it dating at least to
> > early 1998.
> > Similar to Bill's but differing in a few key factors.
> > (If people are
> > going to be using the archives for list history I figured I
> > ought to
> > post the history as I remember it.)
> >
> > I believe the early list was a Sail-net email list. Sailnet
> > was
> > founded in 1994. I don't know when they started their
> > email lists. I
> > think I found the Rhodes list about the same time we
> > purchased
> > Fretless in the Spring of 1998 maybe a bit before. It was
> > not a
> > Rhodes 22 list but a list for admirers and owners of any
> > Rhodes
> > designed boat. The R22 owners quickly overwhelmed the list
> > and it
> > became a de facto R22 list. We were delighted to find each
> > other. If
> > there was another email list before that, it was not a
> > link on the
> > GB website in early 1996 when we started looking at the
> > R22. There
> > was evidently a print R22 Owners Association newsletter
> > that ceased
> > publication in 1991. Sailnet changed owners several times
> > with
> > impacts on email list reliability and the rules for the
> > list. At some
> > point (2002) our esteemed Michael Meltzer (who did indeed
> > help GB get
> > into the web business in the 90s and was a long-time R22
> > owner)
> > offered to host the list on his server. He put it together
> > in one
> > night using the rhodes22.org domain which he had already
> > used in
> > setting up the Rhodes owners site on his server. That was
> > the genesis
> > of the current list. For a while people were on both lists
> > but
> > eventually the Sailnet traffic withered away and Sailnet
> > got rid of
> > their email lists completely earlier this year. They still
> > have
> > forums (bulletin boards) and there is still a Rhodes forum
> > there.
> >
> > In the early days of the list there were several gatherings
> > of Rhodes
> > owners (and wannabees). There was a memorable dinner at
> > Carroll's
> > Creek Restaurant and another at Buddy's in Annapolis
> > after the Boat
> > Show. I remember Cam Whetstone carrying his new centerboard
> > cap
> > around as we waited to get in and Michael Meltzer checking
> > email on
> > his laptop long before any of the rest of us had heard of
> > aircards.
> > This was followed by a couple years when Jan Eyres (event
> > planner
> > extraordinaire) and I (but mostly Jan) planned an after
> > hours catered
> > dinner at the Annapolis Boat Show. Michael arranged the
> > passes to get
> > us in after-hours. Somewhere I still have the pics from
> > that. There
> > was a memorable gathering at Kentucky Lake. We didn't
> > go but it is
> > memorialized with pics on the Rhodes owners website. There
> > was a
> > marriage. There were a couple of gatherings on the
> > Chesapeake as well
> > as well as several mid-winter Chesapeake PlanJams - the
> > last at my
> > house last January with 30 some people. At this year's
> > Boat
> > Show (and last year's) we had lunch with Rhodes owners
> > from the list
> > in a mini-gathering organized on the list. These things
> > won't happen
> > if people sign off the list because of the content or the
> > tone of the
> > conversations.
> >
> > In the early days, if there were angry outbursts and hard
> > feelings
> > they mostly went off list. One person (maybe two) did get
> > banned when
> > they couldn't abide by the charter. It was
> > Michael's call. It was his
> > list. Bill is right that Stan used to send people to the
> > list but I
> > don't think Stan ever claimed ownership. I know that we
> > all have felt
> > a great deal of gratitude to Stan for continuing to build
> > and recycle
> > the boats that we sail with such pleasure. For the most
> > part we have
> > tried to be helpful to General Boats. My guess is that the
> > link to
> > the list came off the GB website when politics started
> > getting ugly.
> > I'm pretty sure Stan still sends people to the list but
> > probably only
> > after they have bought the boat or at least have made the
> > decision to
> > buy the boat.
> >
> > The list charter was a group effort by members of the list
> > to make
> > rules that we could live with and still get along with each
> > other to
> > everyone's benefit.
> >
> > Rummy, who just left the list, through his own good efforts
> > compiled
> > an owners list that was available to any member in good
> > standing of
> > that list. It was invaluable as we got to know each other.
> > When Rummy
> > decided to pack it in, I volunteered to take on the owners
> > list but
> > life intervened and I didn't get to it. By the time I
> > was ready to
> > take up the effort the political problems were in full
> > swing and I
> > wasn't feeling all that eager (not a good excuse just
> > the truth about
> > how I felt at the time). If the list becomes tolerable
> > again, maybe
> > I'll make another attempt.
> >
> > Mary Lou
> > 1991 R22 Fretless
> > Rock Hall, MD
> >
> >
> > At 12:06 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote:
> > >That's good history to know.
> > >When I signed up about 2 years ago, (that seams to be
> > when it started
> > >downhill) I was refered to by Stan also. I saw all the
> > political crap & was
> > >dissappointed....and said so. I got a shorter version
> > of the same
> > >explanation & then understood. I was told this was
> > not Stans list....by
> > >Stan.
> > >I agree with you nothing should be done different, the
> > charter covers it.
> > My
> > >problem is that some people insult you in such a nice
> > way, it's allowed
> > ...&
> > >when someone comes right out & says it, it's a
> > bad thing. I was disgusted
> > by
> > >some of the things said about our last President, I
> > just as disgusted that
> > >some people won't even give the new one a chance.
> > >Jb
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > >To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 9:32 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello
> > Sheriff?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Jb,
> > > >
> > > > Michael built and maintained Stan's website.
> > In return, Stan would tow
> > > > Michael's boat to Edenton every winter,
> > upgrade it, install "test"
> > > > equipment, bottom paint it, and get it back to
> > Michael in time for an
> > > > early launch.
> > > >
> > > > At some point, Michael suggested the formation of
> > an email group so that
> > > > people could ask each other all the questions
> > that Stan couldn't
> > > > possibly respond to...even if he owned a
> > computer, and knew how to use
> > it.
> > > >
> > > > Michael put links on Stan's website so both
> > existing owners and newbies
> > > > could find "da list". (Remember,
> > Google is only 10 years old -- it was
> > > > difficult for anyone other than a computer geek
> > to find anything on the
> > > > Internet, and email lists were not indexed.)
> > Almost everyone who got on
> > > > "da list" at that time was sent here by
> > Stan, both from his website and
> > > > from in-person recommendations both before and
> > after boat purchases.
> > > >
> > > > I know I got here because Stan suggested I could
> > learn a lot from people
> > > > on the list. I know many others who got here the
> > same way.
> > > >
> > > > Michael is one of the smartest people on the
> > planet. In the early days,
> > > > he would answer 9 out of 10 questions asked. He
> > talked to Stan
> > > > regularly, and when he didn't know the
> > answer, and felt it was a good
> > > > question, he would call Stan after hours and come
> > up with the technical
> > > > information the rest of us sought.
> > > >
> > > > We hopped onto the Sailnet list server at some
> > point. They wanted to be
> > > > a web portal for sailers. They offered free
> > list-hosting. As they grew
> > > > they encountered growing pains. They switched
> > software, and lost
> > > > everyone on the list in the process. Those of us
> > who cared, contacted
> > > > everyone else back-channel and told them what had
> > happened and what they
> > > > had to do to get back on the list. I believe we
> > had 34 members at that
> > > > point.
> > > >
> > > > Then Sailnet started selling things, and made a
> > rule that no one else
> > > > could sell anything on any list they hosted.
> > Then they started
> > > > monitoring lists to enforce the rule, and
> > bouncing out people who
> > > > violated their rule.
> > > >
> > > > We started looking for another way to run our
> > list, and Michael came up
> > > > with the Mailman Program which he hosted and
> > maintained as
> > administrator.
> > > >
> > > > At some point Stan learned to use a computer, and
> > started providing
> > > > information directly to the list. What a treat!
> > When somebody got
> > > > something wrong, or had a better way to solve a
> > problem, the guy who
> > > > built the boat would actually discuss the issue
> > on an open forum!
> > > >
> > > > Michael was plugged into the blogging community
> > before anyone used the
> > > > word "blog". He would get jokes, and
> > "insider info" and post it to the
> > > > list long before any other sailor had access to
> > what he posted. Some
> > > > complained that it was "off-topic" but
> > Stan always said he loved it, and
> > > > didn't give a damn if anyone didn't think
> > it was funny, or disagreed
> > > > with anyone else's political views. And, he
> > said, living in Edenton, he
> > > > wasn't locally exposed to a lot of cultural
> > stuff he took for granted
> > > > living near NYC.
> > > >
> > > > "Bring it on" said Stan, "and
> > don't worry about killing a boat
> > > > sale--this is much more fun--be yourself--respect
> > each other--Michael
> > > > taught me how to use the delete key."
> > > >
> > > > Food fights would erupt from time to time over
> > the exact same issues.
> > > > Politics and Religion were both banned at some
> > point, so people started
> > > > inserting their political views in the form of
> > often vicious jokes. The
> > > > only way anyone could object to the joke was to
> > explain it in political
> > > > terms. The prohibition against Politics was
> > dropped with the mandate
> > > > that all political discussion had to be preceded
> > on the subject line by
> > > > the word Politics:
> > > >
> > > > How to use filters to toss all email labeled
> > "Politics:" into anyone's
> > > > junk folder was repeatedly explained so that
> > anyone not wishing to see
> > > > this stuff would never even know others on the
> > list were actively
> > > > discussing these topics.
> > > >
> > > > Later, a rule was instituted mandating that
> > Jokes: also appears on the
> > > > subject line when the content is jokes.
> > > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > At some point the list turned on Stan. It
> > wasn't anyone's fault, it was
> > > > just the normal evolution of the Internet.
> > > >
> > > > Some of the people who had been with the list for
> > a long time opted to
> > > > purchase other boats. They started singing the
> > praises of their boats,
> > > > on Stan's list, and urging others to trade in
> > Stan's boat for one
> > > > bigger, or better, or more ostentatious.
> > > >
> > > > Then people who would never have been able to
> > find each other started
> > > > selling boats directly to each other, and cutting
> > Stan out of the middle
> > > > -- "Stan offered me $10,000 for this boat,
> > so you know he's going to
> > > > sell it for $20,000 -- I'll sell it to anyone
> > on the list for $15,000."
> > > >
> > > > Then people started offering to fabricate parts
> > for Stan's boat--"Send
> > > > me the specifications on that trailer, and
> > I'll make one for you for 1/2
> > > > what Stan would charge."
> > > >
> > > > Over time they hijacked Stan's list. Stan
> > objected several times, and
> > > > many people on the list went out of their way to
> > only buy through Stan.
> > > > But, in the end, Stan stopped participating on a
> > regular basis, and took
> > > > the list off his web site.
> > > >
> > > > But, it's still Stan's list, and Stan is
> > still the common link for most
> > > > of us. He can't use it as a sales tool
> > anymore, but he still can have
> > > > fun with old friends...just as it says in the
> > charter.
> > > >
> > > > I have posted the charter below so all can see
> > what they signed up for,
> > > > if they never took the time to read it
> > previously.
> > > >
> > > > In prior years, Michael would post the Charter at
> > this point--he wrote
> > > > it, but he seems disinclined to do so, so here it
> > is:
> > > >
> > > > *CHARTER*: *rhodes22*-list at ...
> > > >
> > <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=0>
> > > >
> > > > The *rhodes*-list at ...
> > > >
> > <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=1>
> > > > group will be open to discussion of all
> > > > subjects specifically referring to *Rhodes*
> > sailboats or *Rhodes*
> > > > sailors. The focus of this group includes, but is
> > not limited to:
> > > >
> > > > * Encouraging the understanding and discussion of
> > *Rhodes* sailboats or
> > > > *Rhodes* sailors, in the many ways people wish to
> > define it.
> > > >
> > > > * Acting as a source of information for
> > *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*
> > > > sailors worldwide and for people planning to
> > buy/sell/repair/learn
> > > > about *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors.
> > > >
> > > > * Providing a forum for the development and
> > promotion *Rhodes*
> > sailboats
> > > > or *Rhodes* sailors' culture, history,
> > traditions and economy.
> > > >
> > > > * Any other subject that might be found at a
> > sailor's bar or the
> > > > Clubhouse Bar, Including *Rhodes* sailboats or
> > *Rhodes* sailors'
> > travels,
> > > > events, family, jokes, quotations, pets, etc.
> > > >
> > > > * The level of discussion does not have to be
> > fit for a child, but
> > > > some good taste is expected.
> > > >
> > > > Binaries and Formatting: The posting of encoded
> > binaries (e.g.
> > > > pictures, compressed files, etc.) to
> > *rhodes*-list at ...
> > > >
> > <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=2>
> > > > is not
> > > > allowed, the list server will remove them. Please
> > use mixed case when
> > > > posting (Upper and lower case letters), typing
> > words in uppercase
> > > > means you are SHOUTING.
> > > >
> > > > Quoting: Place new material at the top of the
> > post and quote what you
> > > > are replying to below. That makes it simple to
> > find out what is being
> > > > said. You are encouraged to edit down the quoted
> > material.
> > > >
> > > > HTML mail: Allot of the email programs (Netscape
> > and outlook) that can
> > > > send their email with embedded HTML. Embedded
> > HTML can cause some of
> > > > the list members to have trouble reading their
> > mail due to "browser
> > > > wars", not reading their mail with a web
> > browser and double messages
> > > > in digest mode. Member are encouraged to set
> > their programs to send
> > > > "text" email.
> > > >
> > > > Subject Line: Please set or change the subject
> > line to reflect the
> > > > true subject of the post. for example
> > "Subject: anchors" might be
> > > > turned into "Subject: gastank was
> > anchors". If a joke (or any
> > > > questionable material) is being posted please
> > indicate it on the
> > > > subject line, for example "Subject:
> > Monday's Humor (jokes)"
> > > >
> > > > Netiquette: Posts to the group are expected to be
> > considerate of other
> > > > readers. Personal abuse, flames, and obscenities
> > are *not*
> > > > appreciated; but we are sailors.......
> > > >
> > > > Anonymous email: It is expected that users will
> > provide their name in
> > > > the email and will sign same. We like to know
> > who we're talking to.
> > > >
> > > > Social Interaction/Manners: To a certain extent,
> > the interaction is
> > > > about what you would expect in any informal
> > social setting, for
> > > > example, a bar. It is recommended that you get
> > to know people first
> > > > and introduce yourself (about the same social
> > rules that you would use
> > > > to meet any new group of people). There is a
> > high level of chitchat on
> > > > the list, and what you might think is insulting
> > to a group or region
> > > > might only be people kidding each other after
> > knowing them for years.
> > > > As in any bar, the subjects of politics and
> > religion can lead to
> > > > heated augments and bar fights. These might be
> > best avoided.
> > > >
> > > > The need to participate: It is recognized that a
> > group is only whoever
> > > > post to it, no more and no less. We can only talk
> > about what people
> > > > post about. You earn respect on the list by
> > postings and trying to
> > > > help each other, you can not demand it. Most
> > sailing topics we have
> > > > talked about already, We chit chat in the mean
> > time waiting to answer
> > > > questions or a new subject/story. If you want to
> > know something,
> > > > please post it, the more detail the better. If
> > someone is trying to
> > > > help you please answer their reasonable
> > questions. If you can help
> > > > someone, again post it, Try to repay the
> > knowledge you gained.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Effros
> > > >
> > > > Jb wrote:
> > > > > why do keep saying this is Stans list?
> > > > > Jb
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Bill Effros"
> > <bill at effros.com>
> > > > > To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List"
> > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:53 PM
> > > > > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the
> > Jello Sheriff?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Michael,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Who made you the Jello Sheriff?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This is Stan's list, not yours, and
> > he just told us he doesn't
> > believe
> > >a
> > > > >> Jello Sheriff is required.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Shall I tell you who I think is being a
> > PITA?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Do you think it will improve the list if
> > everyone conforms to your
> > >views
> > > > >> of who is using "mean sprite"?
> > Only people who submit jokes you find
> > > > >> funny can remain on the list? If you
> > don't laugh--they're out!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Whatever happened to that rule about
> > throwing people off the list if
> > > > >> they don't own a Rhodes-22?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> How about syntax rules, and spelling
> > rules? That should be fun.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Better drop the rule about people on ego
> > trips.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Of course, this charter change must be
> > submitted to the entire list
> > as
> > > > >> per our charter. Does Rummy still get a
> > vote? How about Ben? How
> > > > >> about people under your review?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> LOL,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Your dear friend,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Bill Effros
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> michael meltzer wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> He is the working idea.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 1) Is the problem is not so
> > much the off subject post, as long
> > as
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> are entertaining there is no real
> > issue, funny, informative, nice..
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 2) The problem is the people
> > using "mean sprite" , pounding on
> > > > >>> people,
> > > > >>> people on ego trips that they must
> > change the world by changing the
> > >view
> > > > >>> of
> > > > >>> the members, being a PITA
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> To that end.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 1) in the short: people using
> > "mean sprite" , pounding on
> > people,
> > > > >>> people on ego trips that they must
> > change the world by changing the
> > >view
> > > > >>> of
> > > > >>> the members. Can and will be
> > suspended buy me and john at our whim,
> > >using
> > > > >>> current tools. Willing to listen to
> > some group feedback but really
> > >the
> > > > >>> right to suspend and remove
> > PITA's
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 2) in the long term both me and
> > john no not have the time for
> > >this.
> > > > >>> Thinking along the lines of a
> > "trusted" group of people can
> > numerated
> > >a
> > > > >>> poster for suspend/remove/band that
> > a larger group of list members
> > can
> > > > >>> vote
> > > > >>> on(the jury, maybe post #/length of
> > time on the list weighted). Web
> > >based
> > > > >>> system. Me and john then become the
> > "apples board. The real question
> > >in
> > > > >>> most
> > > > >>> cases would be are you a PITA and
> > worth it
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 3) there is a question about a
> > wiki(ben), we tried it once but
> > >let's
> > > > >>> try again, it could have broad
> > applies
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > __________________________________________________
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