[Rhodes22-list] Subject: Re: Re design of Rhodes Interior and elimination of compressi...
David Culp
dculp at hsbtx.com
Wed Jun 3 15:21:26 EDT 2009
John:
I don't disagree from the standpoint of the wire breaking strength and your
numbers are straight off the chart for 1/8 rigging. The question is, "What
are we trying to accomplish?" Rummy's shrouds all go loose to leeward.
They have been doing so for 15 years apparently and so far; the mast has
not departed the boat nor does he have an aluminum dance pole in the cabin.
That's a pretty good compromise I would say. From what Stan has written
in the manual and on this forum, my impression is that Stan's recommendation
is closer to Rummy's. What I have tried to do for myself is reach a
compromise between all the different resources that I have read on how to
tune, my experience on other boats and how others do it on this one; with a
view to avoid damaging the boat and maximizing its performance. Like I
said, I hand tighten to start with, use Mr. Loos to balance the settings and
then sail the rig to make sure it is where I personally want it. If not, I
keep tightening until I get it where I want it-Loos or Stan notwithstanding.
At max heel angle. my shrouds are just starting to go loose, not flapping
in the breeze. That is not very far beyond hand tight regardless of
testosterone level, but well below the Loos recommendations based on wire
size.
If we really wanted to get technical with a Loos gauge, especially those of
us with jib furlers and IMF mains, we would tune the rig before
every outing. With no way to tension the halyard on either sail, one way we
can control draft and entry angle is by adjusting the tightness of the rig
especially the jib. We know that the wind speed and the state of the water
that we will be sailing in determines if speed is more important then
control or vice versa for the given day. Is pointing more important today
or would I rather loosen the rig and move the draft back and have more
speed? Again, what are we trying to accomplish? Personally, I don't have a
lot of forestay tension left to play with because I have the mast raked back
about as far as it will go. Why? because I am sailing with a bag of an old
jib and am fighting lee helm. Hope to purchase a new one next year. So
everyone's boat, sail combo and sailing venue is different which makes
blanket recommendations tougher. I have read what Roger wrote. I think
Roger raced the boat and that colored his approach to rigging in my opinion
and it worked just fine for him. For most Rhodies, I think we are just
trying to have a safe, good time. So we do a tune job at the beginning of
the season, the cotter pins go in, the rum bottle comes out and that is the
end of it until the next haul out.
Someone somewhere in my boat's history apparently over-tightened the stays
and it slightly deformed the cabin top. I repaired that and installed a
compression post. No more worries. However, I am probably a little overly
concerned about this issue because of my experiences. Rummy likes his rig
loose, looser then me and his boat is probably faster as a result. On my
narrow, smooth water lake, I need to point so I have it a little tighter.
Still, I can't play any tunes on it. If you like yours tight as a banjo, I
say go for it. We may all yet learn something from you which is the beauty
of this list.
My hope for you as a fellow Rhodie is that you enjoy your boat to the
maximum extent possible and not damage it as to take time away from sailing
it or spending more money on it. It is with this intent that I voiced my
genuine concern. It's a lot easier to just hit the delete key then to try
to help out sometimes. Thank goodness Rummy has lost his. I hope that you
and all others on this forum will accept my comments in the spirit in which
they are always intended. And that is, not that I am in any way smarter,
but more like... have been there and done that. If they come across in a
different tone, please accept my apologies.
dc
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
elimination of compressi...
To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
Message-ID: <23843128.post at talk.nabble.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dave,
The idea of "hand tight" can lead to much discussion of just what is hand
tight? With an nod to jimtracyjohnston and testosterone I suggest just "hand
tight" leaves way to much variance for comfort.
This is why I decided on the loos gauge to give me at least a base line for
reliable rig tuning. I've worked with my hands since I've been a child and I
can easily get 2-3 times what I have now for wire tension by using my hands
only on the turn buckles. 240 lbs on the side stays is approx. 11% of the
wires breaking strength which is lower than Roger Ps' suggested settings for
his boat. I have read several articles on rig tuning and some go as high as
15% of break point. The baby stays at 120 are half that. Remember that all
the stays are at an angle to the mast and 120 lbs wire tension is not 120
lbs downward force some of that force is also pulling sideways as well. This
applies to the side stays as well the load is applied after the spreaders
change the wires' angle to the mast top.
John Shulick
David Culp-3 wrote:
>
> John:
> I have a Loos gauge that I use to balance the rig as well. I think you
> have
> your rig too tight based on the numbers you quoted. In fact, I don't pay
> much attention to the numbers I get on a particular shroud except as a
> comparison to their opposite counterpart.
>
> Stan has advised that the factory recommendation is "hand tight" on the
> shrouds. I would have to look at the Loos instruction pamplet again but I
> believe that the recommendation from Loos is that the lee shrouds should
> be
> at "zero" tension when the boat is healed over at its max angle. Let's
> call
> "zero" as being slack and anything less then that being "loose". After
> raising the mast, I go out and sail the rig a few times watching the
> shrouds. At max heal angle with all sails hoisted, I just begin to see a
> little looseness, just slightly beyond slack so that I can see it. I
> can't
> get there with merely hand tight usually. Don't tell Stan, but I hold the
> top of the turnbuckle with a small wrench and give it about 1/2 or a full
> turn tighter with my hand to get it where I want it. Stan's hands maybe
> stronger then mine is how I rationalize it.
>
> Anyway, my rig is still basically "hand tight" but meets the Loos
> philosophy
> of not going too loose and mast pumping. My numbers are a lot less then
> yours. Who knows what kind of a rig Loos based their numbers on?
> Personally, I would not use their recommendations unless I had a reason
> and a keel-stepped mast and then I would loosen it every time I berthed
> the
> boat. I have already observed first hand what an over-tightened rig can
> do
> to a cabin-stepped mast. Maybe your top is OK now, but what about the
> chain-plates that you can't see? I think Loos is good for racers and
> anyone else demanding consistent, peak performance and willing to pay for
> the consequences. I'm not sure that our boat qualifies as a "racer"
> though
> I do pretty well against all the comparable ones on my lake even at hand
> tight.
>
> I don't remember my Loos numbers but I think I am less then half of what
> you
> are at, maybe 180 at most. I'll check them if you are interested in
> knowing.
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:30:02 EDT
> From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
> elimination of compressi...
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Message-ID: <c4f.468f947f.3756916a at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Having no experience with the loos gauge puts me at a disadvantage. I can
> tell you that my method of testing is done by touch. My stays are taught,
> but not tight. I test each of them until I think they are all about the
> same,
> being careful not to over tighten. I start with each turn buckle at the
> same point and then I and another person count rotations making sure they
> are
> the same. I repeat this with each one. My leeward stays are always loose
> when the sails are filled. That's the way they are supposed to be.
> Roger was a wonderful resource on this list, but please keep in mind that
> he is an engineer. My experience with engineers, including Roger, is that
> they have an extreme tendency to over think things and make them much
> more
> difficult than they need be.
> I would be concerned about the crack that has widened. The crack tells me
> that at one time the stays were to tight otherwise the crack never would
> have appeared. Keep in mind the geometry of the deck and hull and how
> they
> all
> work together.
> Good luck and I'm envious that you are out sailing and I'm waiting for
> paint to dry.
>
> Rummy
>
>
> In a message dated 6/2/2009 9:57:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
>
>
> Rummy,
>
> Glad to see you have a lake with water and a shinny new boat to play with
> (nice color) hope the weather cooperates.
> The loos gauge applies a transverse tension on the wire being tested. The
> wire is pulled with a set amount of force and the amount of deflection is
> measured on a scale which translates to lbs of force. I take the accuracy
> of
> those numbers with a teaspoon of salt but to obtain the same number on
> all
> four baby stays and the 2 side stays indicate balanced tension throughout
> the rigging system. I order to get a consistent reading you must try to
> measure each wire at the same point on its length as close to the center
> point as can be safely reached by standing on the deck.
>
> John Shulick
>
>
>
> R22RumRunner wrote:
>>
>> John,
>> Your numbers from the loos gauge mean absolutely nothing to me, but your
>
>> comment about a 1000 pounds of pressure on the mast support troubles me.
>> Anyone else have any thoughts or experience with the loos gauge?
>>
>> Rummy
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 6/1/2009 11:01:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> The boat has been in the water for three weeks now and the rigging has
>> bin
>> tightened gradually to what I consider normal. In that time the boat
>> has
>> been hit by several cold fronts sweeping through the area with winds
>> of
>> 30
>> mph with gusts to 50. I've been out sailing (10 to 15 with gusts)
> trying
>> out
>> my new mainsail from sailcare. and can report no problems aside from
>> getting
>> used to some squeaks and groans as the 34 year old cabin adjusts to the
>> new
>> load. The interior picture shows the arch under a mast load of approx
>> 1000
>> lbs.
>> 120 on the baby stays and 240 on the side stays as measured on the loos
>> gage.
>>
>> John Shulick
>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p23825735/DSCF0298.jpeg
>>
>>
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