[Rhodes22-list] Subject: Re: Re design of Rhodes Interior and elimination of compressi...
Hank
hnw555 at gmail.com
Wed Jun 3 16:33:47 EDT 2009
He mens the mast being pushed down through the cabin top.
On 6/3/09, Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> wrote:
> John,
>
> Aluminum dance pole? I have an oak one, but not for dancing (don't I
> wish). Its a great help getting old bones in and out of the head. It also
> defrays guests from grabbing the fiddle rail.
>
> Rick
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:21 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
>
>> John:
>>
>> I don't disagree from the standpoint of the wire breaking strength and
>> your
>> numbers are straight off the chart for 1/8 rigging. The question is,
>> "What
>> are we trying to accomplish?" Rummy's shrouds all go loose to leeward.
>> They have been doing so for 15 years apparently and so far; the mast has
>> not departed the boat nor does he have an aluminum dance pole in the
>> cabin.
>> That's a pretty good compromise I would say. From what Stan has written
>> in the manual and on this forum, my impression is that Stan's
>> recommendation
>> is closer to Rummy's. What I have tried to do for myself is reach a
>> compromise between all the different resources that I have read on how to
>> tune, my experience on other boats and how others do it on this one; with
>> a
>> view to avoid damaging the boat and maximizing its performance. Like I
>> said, I hand tighten to start with, use Mr. Loos to balance the settings
>> and
>> then sail the rig to make sure it is where I personally want it. If not,
>> I
>> keep tightening until I get it where I want it-Loos or Stan
>> notwithstanding.
>> At max heel angle. my shrouds are just starting to go loose, not flapping
>> in the breeze. That is not very far beyond hand tight regardless of
>> testosterone level, but well below the Loos recommendations based on wire
>> size.
>>
>> If we really wanted to get technical with a Loos gauge, especially those
>> of
>> us with jib furlers and IMF mains, we would tune the rig before
>> every outing. With no way to tension the halyard on either sail, one way
>> we
>> can control draft and entry angle is by adjusting the tightness of the rig
>> especially the jib. We know that the wind speed and the state of the
>> water
>> that we will be sailing in determines if speed is more important then
>> control or vice versa for the given day. Is pointing more important today
>> or would I rather loosen the rig and move the draft back and have more
>> speed? Again, what are we trying to accomplish? Personally, I don't have
>> a
>> lot of forestay tension left to play with because I have the mast raked
>> back
>> about as far as it will go. Why? because I am sailing with a bag of an
>> old
>> jib and am fighting lee helm. Hope to purchase a new one next year. So
>> everyone's boat, sail combo and sailing venue is different which makes
>> blanket recommendations tougher. I have read what Roger wrote. I think
>> Roger raced the boat and that colored his approach to rigging in my
>> opinion
>> and it worked just fine for him. For most Rhodies, I think we are just
>> trying to have a safe, good time. So we do a tune job at the beginning of
>> the season, the cotter pins go in, the rum bottle comes out and that is
>> the
>> end of it until the next haul out.
>>
>> Someone somewhere in my boat's history apparently over-tightened the stays
>> and it slightly deformed the cabin top. I repaired that and installed a
>> compression post. No more worries. However, I am probably a little
>> overly
>> concerned about this issue because of my experiences. Rummy likes his
>> rig
>> loose, looser then me and his boat is probably faster as a result. On my
>> narrow, smooth water lake, I need to point so I have it a little tighter.
>> Still, I can't play any tunes on it. If you like yours tight as a banjo,
>> I
>> say go for it. We may all yet learn something from you which is the
>> beauty
>> of this list.
>>
>> My hope for you as a fellow Rhodie is that you enjoy your boat to the
>> maximum extent possible and not damage it as to take time away from
>> sailing
>> it or spending more money on it. It is with this intent that I voiced my
>> genuine concern. It's a lot easier to just hit the delete key then to try
>> to help out sometimes. Thank goodness Rummy has lost his. I hope that
>> you
>> and all others on this forum will accept my comments in the spirit in
>> which
>> they are always intended. And that is, not that I am in any way smarter,
>> but more like... have been there and done that. If they come across in a
>> different tone, please accept my apologies.
>>
>> dc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
>> elimination of compressi...
>> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> Message-ID: <23843128.post at talk.nabble.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> The idea of "hand tight" can lead to much discussion of just what is hand
>> tight? With an nod to jimtracyjohnston and testosterone I suggest just
>> "hand
>> tight" leaves way to much variance for comfort.
>> This is why I decided on the loos gauge to give me at least a base line
>> for
>> reliable rig tuning. I've worked with my hands since I've been a child and
>> I
>> can easily get 2-3 times what I have now for wire tension by using my
>> hands
>> only on the turn buckles. 240 lbs on the side stays is approx. 11% of the
>> wires breaking strength which is lower than Roger Ps' suggested settings
>> for
>> his boat. I have read several articles on rig tuning and some go as high
>> as
>> 15% of break point. The baby stays at 120 are half that. Remember that
>> all
>> the stays are at an angle to the mast and 120 lbs wire tension is not 120
>> lbs downward force some of that force is also pulling sideways as well.
>> This
>> applies to the side stays as well the load is applied after the spreaders
>> change the wires' angle to the mast top.
>>
>> John Shulick
>>
>>
>> David Culp-3 wrote:
>> >
>> > John:
>> > I have a Loos gauge that I use to balance the rig as well. I think you
>> > have
>> > your rig too tight based on the numbers you quoted. In fact, I don't
>> > pay
>> > much attention to the numbers I get on a particular shroud except as a
>> > comparison to their opposite counterpart.
>> >
>> > Stan has advised that the factory recommendation is "hand tight" on the
>> > shrouds. I would have to look at the Loos instruction pamplet again but
>> I
>> > believe that the recommendation from Loos is that the lee shrouds should
>> > be
>> > at "zero" tension when the boat is healed over at its max angle. Let's
>> > call
>> > "zero" as being slack and anything less then that being "loose". After
>> > raising the mast, I go out and sail the rig a few times watching the
>> > shrouds. At max heal angle with all sails hoisted, I just begin to see
>> > a
>> > little looseness, just slightly beyond slack so that I can see it. I
>> > can't
>> > get there with merely hand tight usually. Don't tell Stan, but I hold
>> the
>> > top of the turnbuckle with a small wrench and give it about 1/2 or a
>> > full
>> > turn tighter with my hand to get it where I want it. Stan's hands maybe
>> > stronger then mine is how I rationalize it.
>> >
>> > Anyway, my rig is still basically "hand tight" but meets the Loos
>> > philosophy
>> > of not going too loose and mast pumping. My numbers are a lot less then
>> > yours. Who knows what kind of a rig Loos based their numbers on?
>> > Personally, I would not use their recommendations unless I had a
>> > reason
>> > and a keel-stepped mast and then I would loosen it every time I berthed
>> > the
>> > boat. I have already observed first hand what an over-tightened rig can
>> > do
>> > to a cabin-stepped mast. Maybe your top is OK now, but what about the
>> > chain-plates that you can't see? I think Loos is good for racers and
>> > anyone else demanding consistent, peak performance and willing to pay
>> > for
>> > the consequences. I'm not sure that our boat qualifies as a "racer"
>> > though
>> > I do pretty well against all the comparable ones on my lake even at hand
>> > tight.
>> >
>> > I don't remember my Loos numbers but I think I am less then half of what
>> > you
>> > are at, maybe 180 at most. I'll check them if you are interested in
>> > knowing.
>> >
>> > David
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:30:02 EDT
>> > From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
>> > elimination of compressi...
>> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> > Message-ID: <c4f.468f947f.3756916a at aol.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>> >
>> > Having no experience with the loos gauge puts me at a disadvantage. I
>> > can
>> > tell you that my method of testing is done by touch. My stays are
>> > taught,
>> > but not tight. I test each of them until I think they are all about the
>> > same,
>> > being careful not to over tighten. I start with each turn buckle at the
>> > same point and then I and another person count rotations making sure
>> they
>> > are
>> > the same. I repeat this with each one. My leeward stays are always
>> > loose
>> > when the sails are filled. That's the way they are supposed to be.
>> > Roger was a wonderful resource on this list, but please keep in mind
>> > that
>> > he is an engineer. My experience with engineers, including Roger, is
>> > that
>> > they have an extreme tendency to over think things and make them much
>> > more
>> > difficult than they need be.
>> > I would be concerned about the crack that has widened. The crack tells
>> > me
>> > that at one time the stays were to tight otherwise the crack never would
>> > have appeared. Keep in mind the geometry of the deck and hull and how
>> > they
>> > all
>> > work together.
>> > Good luck and I'm envious that you are out sailing and I'm waiting for
>> > paint to dry.
>> >
>> > Rummy
>> >
>> >
>> > In a message dated 6/2/2009 9:57:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> > jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
>> >
>> >
>> > Rummy,
>> >
>> > Glad to see you have a lake with water and a shinny new boat to play
>> with
>> > (nice color) hope the weather cooperates.
>> > The loos gauge applies a transverse tension on the wire being tested.
>> The
>> > wire is pulled with a set amount of force and the amount of deflection
>> is
>> > measured on a scale which translates to lbs of force. I take the
>> accuracy
>> > of
>> > those numbers with a teaspoon of salt but to obtain the same number on
>> > all
>> > four baby stays and the 2 side stays indicate balanced tension
>> throughout
>> > the rigging system. I order to get a consistent reading you must try to
>> > measure each wire at the same point on its length as close to the
>> > center
>> > point as can be safely reached by standing on the deck.
>> >
>> > John Shulick
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > R22RumRunner wrote:
>> >>
>> >> John,
>> >> Your numbers from the loos gauge mean absolutely nothing to me, but
>> your
>> >
>> >> comment about a 1000 pounds of pressure on the mast support troubles
>> me.
>> >> Anyone else have any thoughts or experience with the loos gauge?
>> >>
>> >> Rummy
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In a message dated 6/1/2009 11:01:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> >> jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> The boat has been in the water for three weeks now and the rigging
>> >> has
>> >> bin
>> >> tightened gradually to what I consider normal. In that time the boat
>> >> has
>> >> been hit by several cold fronts sweeping through the area with winds
>> >> of
>> >> 30
>> >> mph with gusts to 50. I've been out sailing (10 to 15 with gusts)
>> > trying
>> >> out
>> >> my new mainsail from sailcare. and can report no problems aside from
>> >> getting
>> >> used to some squeaks and groans as the 34 year old cabin adjusts to
>> the
>> >> new
>> >> load. The interior picture shows the arch under a mast load of approx
>> >> 1000
>> >> lbs.
>> >> 120 on the baby stays and 240 on the side stays as measured on the
>> loos
>> >> gage.
>> >>
>> >> John Shulick
>> >> http://www.nabble.com/file/p23825735/DSCF0298.jpeg
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
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>> > .
>> >> html
>> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>
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