[Rhodes22-list] Subject: Re: Re design of Rhodes Interior and elimination of compressi...
Rick
sloopblueheron at gmail.com
Wed Jun 3 17:25:52 EDT 2009
Oh, well, I was talking about a compression post. And not that it should be
used to compensate for over tightning the stays.
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Hank <hnw555 at gmail.com> wrote:
> He mens the mast being pushed down through the cabin top.
>
> On 6/3/09, Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > Aluminum dance pole? I have an oak one, but not for dancing (don't I
> > wish). Its a great help getting old bones in and out of the head. It
> also
> > defrays guests from grabbing the fiddle rail.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:21 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
> >
> >> John:
> >>
> >> I don't disagree from the standpoint of the wire breaking strength and
> >> your
> >> numbers are straight off the chart for 1/8 rigging. The question is,
> >> "What
> >> are we trying to accomplish?" Rummy's shrouds all go loose to leeward.
> >> They have been doing so for 15 years apparently and so far; the mast
> has
> >> not departed the boat nor does he have an aluminum dance pole in the
> >> cabin.
> >> That's a pretty good compromise I would say. From what Stan has
> written
> >> in the manual and on this forum, my impression is that Stan's
> >> recommendation
> >> is closer to Rummy's. What I have tried to do for myself is reach a
> >> compromise between all the different resources that I have read on how
> to
> >> tune, my experience on other boats and how others do it on this one;
> with
> >> a
> >> view to avoid damaging the boat and maximizing its performance. Like I
> >> said, I hand tighten to start with, use Mr. Loos to balance the settings
> >> and
> >> then sail the rig to make sure it is where I personally want it. If
> not,
> >> I
> >> keep tightening until I get it where I want it-Loos or Stan
> >> notwithstanding.
> >> At max heel angle. my shrouds are just starting to go loose, not
> flapping
> >> in the breeze. That is not very far beyond hand tight regardless of
> >> testosterone level, but well below the Loos recommendations based on
> wire
> >> size.
> >>
> >> If we really wanted to get technical with a Loos gauge, especially those
> >> of
> >> us with jib furlers and IMF mains, we would tune the rig before
> >> every outing. With no way to tension the halyard on either sail, one
> way
> >> we
> >> can control draft and entry angle is by adjusting the tightness of the
> rig
> >> especially the jib. We know that the wind speed and the state of the
> >> water
> >> that we will be sailing in determines if speed is more important then
> >> control or vice versa for the given day. Is pointing more important
> today
> >> or would I rather loosen the rig and move the draft back and have more
> >> speed? Again, what are we trying to accomplish? Personally, I don't
> have
> >> a
> >> lot of forestay tension left to play with because I have the mast raked
> >> back
> >> about as far as it will go. Why? because I am sailing with a bag of an
> >> old
> >> jib and am fighting lee helm. Hope to purchase a new one next year. So
> >> everyone's boat, sail combo and sailing venue is different which makes
> >> blanket recommendations tougher. I have read what Roger wrote. I think
> >> Roger raced the boat and that colored his approach to rigging in my
> >> opinion
> >> and it worked just fine for him. For most Rhodies, I think we are just
> >> trying to have a safe, good time. So we do a tune job at the beginning
> of
> >> the season, the cotter pins go in, the rum bottle comes out and that is
> >> the
> >> end of it until the next haul out.
> >>
> >> Someone somewhere in my boat's history apparently over-tightened the
> stays
> >> and it slightly deformed the cabin top. I repaired that and installed a
> >> compression post. No more worries. However, I am probably a little
> >> overly
> >> concerned about this issue because of my experiences. Rummy likes his
> >> rig
> >> loose, looser then me and his boat is probably faster as a result. On
> my
> >> narrow, smooth water lake, I need to point so I have it a little
> tighter.
> >> Still, I can't play any tunes on it. If you like yours tight as a
> banjo,
> >> I
> >> say go for it. We may all yet learn something from you which is the
> >> beauty
> >> of this list.
> >>
> >> My hope for you as a fellow Rhodie is that you enjoy your boat to the
> >> maximum extent possible and not damage it as to take time away from
> >> sailing
> >> it or spending more money on it. It is with this intent that I voiced
> my
> >> genuine concern. It's a lot easier to just hit the delete key then to
> try
> >> to help out sometimes. Thank goodness Rummy has lost his. I hope that
> >> you
> >> and all others on this forum will accept my comments in the spirit in
> >> which
> >> they are always intended. And that is, not that I am in any way
> smarter,
> >> but more like... have been there and done that. If they come across in
> a
> >> different tone, please accept my apologies.
> >>
> >> dc
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
> >> From: John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
> >> elimination of compressi...
> >> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >> Message-ID: <23843128.post at talk.nabble.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >>
> >>
> >> Dave,
> >>
> >> The idea of "hand tight" can lead to much discussion of just what is
> hand
> >> tight? With an nod to jimtracyjohnston and testosterone I suggest just
> >> "hand
> >> tight" leaves way to much variance for comfort.
> >> This is why I decided on the loos gauge to give me at least a base line
> >> for
> >> reliable rig tuning. I've worked with my hands since I've been a child
> and
> >> I
> >> can easily get 2-3 times what I have now for wire tension by using my
> >> hands
> >> only on the turn buckles. 240 lbs on the side stays is approx. 11% of
> the
> >> wires breaking strength which is lower than Roger Ps' suggested settings
> >> for
> >> his boat. I have read several articles on rig tuning and some go as high
> >> as
> >> 15% of break point. The baby stays at 120 are half that. Remember that
> >> all
> >> the stays are at an angle to the mast and 120 lbs wire tension is not
> 120
> >> lbs downward force some of that force is also pulling sideways as well.
> >> This
> >> applies to the side stays as well the load is applied after the
> spreaders
> >> change the wires' angle to the mast top.
> >>
> >> John Shulick
> >>
> >>
> >> David Culp-3 wrote:
> >> >
> >> > John:
> >> > I have a Loos gauge that I use to balance the rig as well. I think
> you
> >> > have
> >> > your rig too tight based on the numbers you quoted. In fact, I don't
> >> > pay
> >> > much attention to the numbers I get on a particular shroud except as a
> >> > comparison to their opposite counterpart.
> >> >
> >> > Stan has advised that the factory recommendation is "hand tight" on
> the
> >> > shrouds. I would have to look at the Loos instruction pamplet again
> but
> >> I
> >> > believe that the recommendation from Loos is that the lee shrouds
> should
> >> > be
> >> > at "zero" tension when the boat is healed over at its max angle.
> Let's
> >> > call
> >> > "zero" as being slack and anything less then that being "loose".
> After
> >> > raising the mast, I go out and sail the rig a few times watching the
> >> > shrouds. At max heal angle with all sails hoisted, I just begin to
> see
> >> > a
> >> > little looseness, just slightly beyond slack so that I can see it. I
> >> > can't
> >> > get there with merely hand tight usually. Don't tell Stan, but I hold
> >> the
> >> > top of the turnbuckle with a small wrench and give it about 1/2 or a
> >> > full
> >> > turn tighter with my hand to get it where I want it. Stan's hands
> maybe
> >> > stronger then mine is how I rationalize it.
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, my rig is still basically "hand tight" but meets the Loos
> >> > philosophy
> >> > of not going too loose and mast pumping. My numbers are a lot less
> then
> >> > yours. Who knows what kind of a rig Loos based their numbers on?
> >> > Personally, I would not use their recommendations unless I had a
> >> > reason
> >> > and a keel-stepped mast and then I would loosen it every time I
> berthed
> >> > the
> >> > boat. I have already observed first hand what an over-tightened rig
> can
> >> > do
> >> > to a cabin-stepped mast. Maybe your top is OK now, but what about the
> >> > chain-plates that you can't see? I think Loos is good for racers and
> >> > anyone else demanding consistent, peak performance and willing to pay
> >> > for
> >> > the consequences. I'm not sure that our boat qualifies as a "racer"
> >> > though
> >> > I do pretty well against all the comparable ones on my lake even at
> hand
> >> > tight.
> >> >
> >> > I don't remember my Loos numbers but I think I am less then half of
> what
> >> > you
> >> > are at, maybe 180 at most. I'll check them if you are interested in
> >> > knowing.
> >> >
> >> > David
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:30:02 EDT
> >> > From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
> >> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
> >> > elimination of compressi...
> >> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> >> > Message-ID: <c4f.468f947f.3756916a at aol.com>
> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >> >
> >> > Having no experience with the loos gauge puts me at a disadvantage. I
> >> > can
> >> > tell you that my method of testing is done by touch. My stays are
> >> > taught,
> >> > but not tight. I test each of them until I think they are all about
> the
> >> > same,
> >> > being careful not to over tighten. I start with each turn buckle at
> the
> >> > same point and then I and another person count rotations making sure
> >> they
> >> > are
> >> > the same. I repeat this with each one. My leeward stays are always
> >> > loose
> >> > when the sails are filled. That's the way they are supposed to be.
> >> > Roger was a wonderful resource on this list, but please keep in mind
> >> > that
> >> > he is an engineer. My experience with engineers, including Roger, is
> >> > that
> >> > they have an extreme tendency to over think things and make them much
> >> > more
> >> > difficult than they need be.
> >> > I would be concerned about the crack that has widened. The crack tells
> >> > me
> >> > that at one time the stays were to tight otherwise the crack never
> would
> >> > have appeared. Keep in mind the geometry of the deck and hull and how
> >> > they
> >> > all
> >> > work together.
> >> > Good luck and I'm envious that you are out sailing and I'm waiting for
> >> > paint to dry.
> >> >
> >> > Rummy
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In a message dated 6/2/2009 9:57:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> >> > jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Rummy,
> >> >
> >> > Glad to see you have a lake with water and a shinny new boat to play
> >> with
> >> > (nice color) hope the weather cooperates.
> >> > The loos gauge applies a transverse tension on the wire being tested.
> >> The
> >> > wire is pulled with a set amount of force and the amount of deflection
> >> is
> >> > measured on a scale which translates to lbs of force. I take the
> >> accuracy
> >> > of
> >> > those numbers with a teaspoon of salt but to obtain the same number
> on
> >> > all
> >> > four baby stays and the 2 side stays indicate balanced tension
> >> throughout
> >> > the rigging system. I order to get a consistent reading you must try
> to
> >> > measure each wire at the same point on its length as close to the
> >> > center
> >> > point as can be safely reached by standing on the deck.
> >> >
> >> > John Shulick
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > R22RumRunner wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> John,
> >> >> Your numbers from the loos gauge mean absolutely nothing to me, but
> >> your
> >> >
> >> >> comment about a 1000 pounds of pressure on the mast support troubles
> >> me.
> >> >> Anyone else have any thoughts or experience with the loos gauge?
> >> >>
> >> >> Rummy
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> In a message dated 6/1/2009 11:01:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> >> >> jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi all,
> >> >>
> >> >> The boat has been in the water for three weeks now and the rigging
> >> >> has
> >> >> bin
> >> >> tightened gradually to what I consider normal. In that time the
> boat
> >> >> has
> >> >> been hit by several cold fronts sweeping through the area with
> winds
> >> >> of
> >> >> 30
> >> >> mph with gusts to 50. I've been out sailing (10 to 15 with gusts)
> >> > trying
> >> >> out
> >> >> my new mainsail from sailcare. and can report no problems aside
> from
> >> >> getting
> >> >> used to some squeaks and groans as the 34 year old cabin adjusts to
> >> the
> >> >> new
> >> >> load. The interior picture shows the arch under a mast load of
> approx
> >> >> 1000
> >> >> lbs.
> >> >> 120 on the baby stays and 240 on the side stays as measured on the
> >> loos
> >> >> gage.
> >> >>
> >> >> John Shulick
> >> >> http://www.nabble.com/file/p23825735/DSCF0298.jpeg
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> View this message in context:
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
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> >> > .
> >> >> html
> >> >> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >> >>
> >> >> __________________________________________________
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> >> >>
> >> >>
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> >>
> http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Re-design-of-Rhodes-Interior-and-elimination-of-compressi...-tp23832100p23833015.html
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> >> >
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> >> >
> >> > **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2
> Easy
> >> > Steps!
> >> > (
> >> >
> >>
> >>
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