[Rhodes22-list] Subject: Re: Re design of Rhodes Interior and elimination of compressi...

John Shulick jsbudda at verizon.net
Wed Jun 3 21:56:22 EDT 2009


Rick,

The objective of the re design was to eliminate the post to open up the
cabin interior also to extend the sleeping area. I'm 6' tall 280 lbs and
every little bit helps.

John S

Rick-139 wrote:
> 
> Oh, well, I was talking about a compression post.  And not that it should
> be
> used to compensate for over tightning the stays.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Hank <hnw555 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> He mens the mast being pushed down through the cabin top.
>>
>> On 6/3/09, Rick <sloopblueheron at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > John,
>> >
>> > Aluminum dance pole?  I have an oak one, but not for dancing (don't I
>> > wish).  Its a great help getting old bones in and out of the head.  It
>> also
>> > defrays guests from grabbing the fiddle rail.
>> >
>> > Rick
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:21 PM, David Culp <dculp at hsbtx.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> John:
>> >>
>> >> I don't disagree from the standpoint of the wire breaking strength and
>> >> your
>> >> numbers are straight off the chart for 1/8 rigging.  The question is,
>> >> "What
>> >> are we trying to accomplish?"  Rummy's shrouds all go loose to
>> leeward.
>> >>  They have been doing so for 15 years apparently and so far; the mast
>> has
>> >> not departed the boat nor does he have an aluminum dance pole in the
>> >> cabin.
>> >>  That's a pretty good compromise I would say.  From what Stan has
>> written
>> >> in the manual and on this forum, my impression is that Stan's
>> >> recommendation
>> >> is closer to Rummy's.  What I have tried to do for myself is reach a
>> >> compromise between all the different resources that I have read on how
>> to
>> >> tune, my experience on other boats and how others do it on this one;
>> with
>> >> a
>> >> view to avoid damaging the boat and maximizing its performance.  Like
>> I
>> >> said, I hand tighten to start with, use Mr. Loos to balance the
>> settings
>> >> and
>> >> then sail the rig to make sure it is where I personally want it.  If
>> not,
>> >> I
>> >> keep tightening until I get it where I want it-Loos or Stan
>> >> notwithstanding.
>> >>  At max heel angle. my shrouds are just starting to go loose, not
>> flapping
>> >> in the breeze.  That is not very far beyond hand tight regardless of
>> >> testosterone level, but well below the Loos recommendations based on
>> wire
>> >> size.
>> >>
>> >> If we really wanted to get technical with a Loos gauge, especially
>> those
>> >> of
>> >> us with jib furlers and IMF mains, we would tune the rig before
>> >> every outing.  With no way to tension the halyard on either sail, one
>> way
>> >> we
>> >> can control draft and entry angle is by adjusting the tightness of the
>> rig
>> >> especially the jib.  We know that the wind speed and the state of the
>> >> water
>> >> that we will be sailing in determines if speed is more important then
>> >> control or vice versa for the given day.  Is pointing more important
>> today
>> >> or would I rather loosen the rig and move the draft back and have more
>> >> speed?  Again, what are we trying to accomplish?  Personally, I don't
>> have
>> >> a
>> >> lot of forestay tension left to play with because I have the mast
>> raked
>> >> back
>> >> about as far as it will go.  Why? because I am sailing with a bag of
>> an
>> >> old
>> >> jib and am fighting lee helm.  Hope to purchase a new one next year. 
>> So
>> >> everyone's boat, sail combo and sailing venue is different which makes
>> >> blanket recommendations tougher.  I have read what Roger wrote.  I
>> think
>> >> Roger raced the boat and that colored his approach to rigging in my
>> >> opinion
>> >> and it worked just fine for him.  For most Rhodies, I think we are
>> just
>> >> trying to have a safe, good time.  So we do a tune job at the
>> beginning
>> of
>> >> the season, the cotter pins go in, the rum bottle comes out and that
>> is
>> >> the
>> >> end of it until the next haul out.
>> >>
>> >> Someone somewhere in my boat's history apparently over-tightened the
>> stays
>> >> and it slightly deformed the cabin top.  I repaired that and installed
>> a
>> >> compression post.  No more worries.  However, I am probably a little
>> >> overly
>> >> concerned about this issue because of my experiences.   Rummy likes
>> his
>> >> rig
>> >> loose, looser then me and his boat is probably faster as a result.  On
>> my
>> >> narrow, smooth water lake, I need to point so I have it a little
>> tighter.
>> >>  Still, I can't play any tunes on it.  If you like yours tight as a
>> banjo,
>> >> I
>> >> say go for it.  We may all yet learn something from you which is the
>> >> beauty
>> >> of this list.
>> >>
>> >> My hope for you as a fellow Rhodie is that you enjoy your boat to the
>> >> maximum extent possible and not damage it as to take time away from
>> >> sailing
>> >> it or spending more money on it.   It is with this intent that I
>> voiced
>> my
>> >> genuine concern.  It's a lot easier to just hit the delete key then to
>> try
>> >> to help out sometimes.  Thank goodness Rummy has lost his.   I hope
>> that
>> >> you
>> >> and all others on this forum will accept my comments in the spirit in
>> >> which
>> >> they are always intended.  And that is, not that I am in any way
>> smarter,
>> >> but more like... have been there and done that.  If they come across
>> in
>> a
>> >> different tone, please accept my apologies.
>> >>
>> >> dc
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:55:29 -0700 (PDT)
>> >> From: John Shulick <jsbudda at verizon.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
>> >>       elimination of compressi...
>> >> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> >> Message-ID: <23843128.post at talk.nabble.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dave,
>> >>
>> >>  The idea of "hand tight" can lead to much discussion of just what is
>> hand
>> >> tight? With an nod to jimtracyjohnston and testosterone I suggest just
>> >> "hand
>> >> tight" leaves way to much variance for comfort.
>> >> This is why I decided on the loos gauge to give me at least a base
>> line
>> >> for
>> >> reliable rig tuning. I've worked with my hands since I've been a child
>> and
>> >> I
>> >> can easily get 2-3 times what I have now for wire tension by using my
>> >> hands
>> >> only on the turn buckles. 240 lbs on the side stays is approx. 11% of
>> the
>> >> wires breaking strength which is lower than Roger Ps' suggested
>> settings
>> >> for
>> >> his boat. I have read several articles on rig tuning and some go as
>> high
>> >> as
>> >> 15% of break point. The baby stays at 120 are half that.  Remember
>> that
>> >> all
>> >> the stays are at an angle to the mast and 120 lbs wire tension is not
>> 120
>> >> lbs downward force some of that force is also pulling sideways as
>> well.
>> >> This
>> >> applies to the side stays as well the load is applied after the
>> spreaders
>> >> change the wires' angle to the mast top.
>> >>
>> >> John Shulick
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> David Culp-3 wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > John:
>> >> > I have a Loos gauge that I use to balance the rig as well.  I think
>> you
>> >> > have
>> >> > your rig too tight based on the numbers you quoted.  In fact, I
>> don't
>> >> > pay
>> >> > much attention to the numbers I get on a particular shroud except as
>> a
>> >> > comparison to their opposite counterpart.
>> >> >
>> >> > Stan has advised that the factory recommendation is "hand tight" on
>> the
>> >> > shrouds.  I would have to look at the Loos instruction pamplet again
>> but
>> >> I
>> >> > believe that the recommendation from Loos is that the lee shrouds
>> should
>> >> > be
>> >> > at "zero" tension when the boat is healed over at its max angle.
>>  Let's
>> >> > call
>> >> > "zero" as being slack and anything less then that being "loose".
>>  After
>> >> > raising the mast, I go out and sail the rig a few times watching the
>> >> > shrouds.  At max heal angle with all sails hoisted, I just begin to
>> see
>> >> > a
>> >> > little looseness, just slightly beyond slack so that I can see it. 
>> I
>> >> > can't
>> >> > get there with merely hand tight usually.  Don't tell Stan, but I
>> hold
>> >> the
>> >> > top of the turnbuckle with a small wrench and give it about 1/2 or a
>> >> > full
>> >> > turn tighter with my hand to get it where I want it.  Stan's hands
>> maybe
>> >> > stronger then mine is how I rationalize it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyway, my rig is still basically "hand tight" but meets the Loos
>> >> > philosophy
>> >> > of not going too loose and mast pumping.  My numbers are a lot less
>> then
>> >> > yours.  Who knows what kind of a rig Loos based their numbers on?
>> >> >  Personally,  I would not use their recommendations unless I had a
>> >> > reason
>> >> > and a keel-stepped mast and then I would loosen it every time I
>> berthed
>> >> > the
>> >> > boat.  I have already observed first hand what an over-tightened rig
>> can
>> >> > do
>> >> > to a cabin-stepped mast.  Maybe your top is OK now, but what about
>> the
>> >> > chain-plates that you can't see?   I think Loos is good for racers
>> and
>> >> > anyone else demanding consistent, peak performance and willing to
>> pay
>> >> > for
>> >> > the consequences.  I'm not sure that our boat qualifies as a "racer"
>> >> > though
>> >> > I do pretty well against all the comparable ones on my lake even at
>> hand
>> >> > tight.
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't remember my Loos numbers but I think I am less then half of
>> what
>> >> > you
>> >> > are at, maybe 180 at most.  I'll check them if you are interested in
>> >> > knowing.
>> >> >
>> >> > David
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:30:02 EDT
>> >> > From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
>> >> >        elimination of  compressi...
>> >> > To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>> >> > Message-ID: <c4f.468f947f.3756916a at aol.com>
>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>> >> >
>> >> > Having no experience with the loos gauge puts me at a disadvantage.
>> I
>> >> > can
>> >> > tell you that my method of testing is done by touch. My stays are
>> >> > taught,
>> >> > but  not tight. I test each of them until I think they are all about
>> the
>> >> > same,
>> >> > being  careful not to over tighten. I start with each turn buckle at
>> the
>> >> > same point and  then I and another person count rotations making
>> sure
>> >> they
>> >> > are
>> >> > the same. I  repeat this with each one. My leeward stays are always
>> >> > loose
>> >> > when the sails are  filled. That's the way they are supposed to be.
>> >> > Roger was a wonderful resource on this list, but please keep in mind
>> >> > that
>> >> > he is an engineer. My experience with engineers, including Roger, is
>> >> > that
>> >> > they  have an extreme tendency to over think things and make them
>> much
>> >> > more
>> >> > difficult  than they need be.
>> >> > I would be concerned about the crack that has widened. The crack
>> tells
>> >> > me
>> >> > that at one time the stays were to tight otherwise the crack never
>> would
>> >> > have  appeared. Keep in mind the geometry of the deck and hull and
>> how
>> >> > they
>> >> > all
>> >> > work  together.
>> >> > Good luck and I'm envious that you are out sailing and I'm waiting
>> for
>> >> > paint to dry.
>> >> >
>> >> > Rummy
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > In a message dated 6/2/2009 9:57:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> >> > jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Rummy,
>> >> >
>> >> > Glad to see you have a lake with water and a  shinny new boat to
>> play
>> >> with
>> >> > (nice color) hope the weather cooperates.
>> >> > The loos gauge applies a transverse tension on the wire being
>> tested.
>> >>  The
>> >> > wire is pulled with a set amount of force and the amount of
>> deflection
>> >>  is
>> >> > measured on a scale which translates to lbs of force. I take the
>> >>  accuracy
>> >> > of
>> >> > those numbers with a teaspoon of salt but to obtain the same  number
>> on
>> >> > all
>> >> > four baby stays and the 2 side stays indicate balanced  tension
>> >> throughout
>> >> > the rigging system. I order to get a consistent reading  you must
>> try
>> to
>> >> > measure each wire at the same point on its length as close  to the
>> >> > center
>> >> > point as can be safely reached by standing on the  deck.
>> >> >
>> >> > John Shulick
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > R22RumRunner wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  John,
>> >> >> Your numbers from the loos gauge mean absolutely nothing to me, 
>> but
>> >> your
>> >> >
>> >> >> comment about a 1000 pounds of pressure on the mast  support
>> troubles
>> >> me.
>> >> >> Anyone  else have any thoughts or  experience with the loos gauge?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Rummy
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In a message dated 6/1/2009 11:01:33 P.M. Eastern  Daylight Time,
>> >> >> jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi  all,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The boat has been in the water for  three weeks now and the rigging
>> >> >> has
>> >> >> bin
>> >> >> tightened  gradually to what I consider normal. In that time the
>>  boat
>> >> >> has
>> >> >>  been hit by several cold fronts sweeping through the area with
>>  winds
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> 30
>> >> >> mph with gusts to 50. I've been out sailing (10 to 15  with  gusts)
>> >> > trying
>> >> >> out
>> >> >> my new mainsail from sailcare.  and can report no problems  aside
>> from
>> >> >> getting
>> >> >> used to  some squeaks and groans as the 34 year old cabin  adjusts
>> to
>> >> the
>> >> >>  new
>> >> >> load. The interior picture shows the arch under a mast  load  of
>> approx
>> >> >> 1000
>> >> >> lbs.
>> >> >> 120 on the baby stays  and 240 on  the side stays as measured on
>> the
>> >> loos
>> >> >> gage.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> John  Shulick
>> >> >>  http://www.nabble.com/file/p23825735/DSCF0298.jpeg
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  --
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>> >> > .
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>> >>
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>> >> > Steps!
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