[Rhodes22-list] Unbolted track

Tue Jul 27 11:48:35 EDT 2021

Mike, thanks for the details.

Jesse Shumaker
S/V Zephyr

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 10:26 AM mweisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com> wrote:

> I typically use 1/4" thick 316 stainless steel sheets. The size varies
> depending on the load from 1" x 2" strips for small hardware to 12" x 12"
> sheet stock ($130 at McMaster) for the mast crane cleat. One easily found
> source is McMaster Carr (
> https://www.mcmaster.com/metals/stainless-steel/shape~sheet-and-bar/corrosion-resistant-316-stainless-steel-6/thickness~1-4/).
> An image of the link is attached at the end of the email.
> Mike
> s/v Wind Lass ('91)
> Nissequogue River, NYI'd rather be sailing ⛵Please consider the
> environment before printing this email.
> -------- Original message --------From: Jesse Shumaker <
> jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> Date: 7/26/21  11:28 AM  (GMT-05:00) To:
> The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> Subject: Re:
> [Rhodes22-list] Unbolted track Just curious for those that have added
> backing plates in certain scenarios,what material have you used for
> this?I've used steel sheet metal from Home Depot that I cut to size with
> anangle grinder and painted with Rustoleum primer and paint
> beforeinstallation.  I didn't find stainless steel sheet metal at the
> hardwarestore or home improvement stores.  I don't recall the
> gauge/thickness thatI used.  I also used fender washers on top of the
> backing plates.  I'veadded backing plates for the bow cleat, two chocks
> that I installed towardsthe bow, a flip up midship cleat that I installed,
> as well as the throughbolts for the anchor roller mount... so far so
> good.Jesse ShumakerS/V ZephyrOn Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 9:48 AM Michael D.
> Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com>wrote:> I agree with Stan.>> The track was
> designed to support the stresses of the jib car. The forces> experienced in
> such use are directed more fore and aft, for which the track> is secured
> properly. A track mounted cleat, whether for spring line or> docking,
> exerts significant forces upward and side to side, for which the> track is
> not well suited. Such applications will likely result in damage to> the
> track, as you have found. Lastly, the track may fail if significant> force
> is applied, simply due to its age, which is not a necessarily a> design
> flaw.>> By the way, I use the foredeck mounted docking cleat as part of my
> mast> crane system. I have through bolted and spread the transmitted forces
> using> a backing plate to accommodate the nearly 500 lbs of vertical force
> that is> applied by the winch at the start and end of the mast erection
> process.> This is quite different than the original purpose of the deck
> mounted> docking cleat which was designed to sustain mostly lateral
> (horizontal)> forces when docked or moored.>> Please do not assume that any
> fixture will withstand forces outside of its> design parameters and
> remember to account for changes due to age of the> device and boat.>> Mike>
> s/v Wind Lass ('91)> Nissequogue River, NY>> -----Original Message----->
> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of>
> THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 10:28 AM> To:
> Lewin <lewin at mail.com>> Cc: stan <stan at generalboats.com>; The Rhodes 22
> Email List <> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]
> Unbolted track>> It was being used as a spring line when it broke track>> >
> On Jul 26, 2021, at 9:50 AM, Lewin <lewin at mail.com> wrote:> >> > If a
> track mounted cleat were only used for bow and stern spring lines> would it
> be less likely to fail?> >> > ------------------> > Bernard> >> >> > On Jul
> 25, 2021, at 9:27 PM, THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list <>
> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:> >> > I only posted because there
> were previous posts about mounting cleats> on the track. I have no
> complaints about the boat and enjoy everything> about it.  I know now, the
> hard way, not to mount cleats on the tracks and> wanted to make others
> aware. I will repair and continue on enjoying> everything about the boat.
> No disrespect was intended, Stan, and I will> continue to appreciate
> everything you did to create this incredible boat.> >> >> On Jul 25, 2021,
> at 6:47 PM, stan <stan at generalboats.com> wrote:> >>> >> > >> My O my, I
> am flattered when those Rhodies who praise the Rhodes> engineering get
> pleasure out of finding what they think is a flaw.> >>> >> In the Rhodes 50
> plus years, I have not heard of a single genoa track> pull off - when used
> for what it was designed to do; carry the load of the> giant 175 genoa
> sheets. That load is carried by a great number of machine> screws; more
> than sufficient to carry the shear loading placed on them.  Of> course Todd
> did not mean they should be bolted on to the gel coat.  But I> think his
> comment that "I've found more than a few questionable things> which needed
> to be properly "re"engineered." is gratuitously disingenuous.> Personally
> my over the hill engineering mind would think it silly to mount> docking
> cleats to genoa tracks. Even if those tracks had long enough> machine screw
> passing all the way through the outerside of the hull and had> fender
> washers and lock nuts on them, those shiftable docking cleats would>
> distort the thin edges of the genoa tracks making the genoa cars a chore
> or> even impossible to adjust.> >> If you want to put on docking cleats,
> mount them to the boat proper.> You want a spring line cleat, don't use it
> for a docking cleat.  You want a> boat engineered for docking? Have I got a
> boat to sell you. No hands, no> straps, just three little docking eyes. See
> attachment. Guaranteed to hold> for any winds. Just stop putting moving
> docking cleats where they are not> invited to go.> >>> >> stan> >>> >>>
> >>>> On 7/25/21 12:00 PM, THOMAS POLISE via Rhodes22-list wrote:> >>> I
> found that there are no nuts or nut plates, just curious if anyone> else
> had a similar situation.> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 25, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Todd
> Tavares <tavares0947 at gmail.com>> wrote:> >>>>>> >>>>> Those are machine
> screws. There should be nuts underneath or nut> >>>>> plates embedded in
> the rail under the gelcoat.> >>>>>> >>>>> But it wouldn't surprise me if
> the machine screws were just> >>>>> threaded into wood or even threaded
> into epoxy. I've found more> >>>>> than a few questionable things which
> needed to be properly> "re"engineered.> >>>>> Let us know what you find
> once you dig into this problem.> >>>>>> >>>>> Todd T.> >>>>>> >>>>>> On
> Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 11:10 AM Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>>
> wrote:> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Thomas,> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Would you prefer gelcoat
> damage?> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Never mount a dockline holding cleat without a
> backing plate.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Regards,> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Rick Lange> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:02 AM THOMAS POLISE via
> Rhodes22-list> >>>>>> < rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote:> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyone else notice that the jib track is just put in without> >>>>>>
> bolts.  I added cleat to track which was yanked out in high winds.> >>>>>>>
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