[Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications - another alternative

Sun Mar 28 12:15:59 EDT 2021

Roger,
Thanks for the clarification on the part number. I have never looked at the
online parts catalog.

I'm not a holder of an ROC nor did I have the preceding C of S; eventhough
IIRC, I offered to pay Stan the then 5% of the purchase price of my first
Rhodes 22. $15 on the purchase price of $300...which, again my memory is
hazy, he declined. I think he mused once that I was an honorary member.

I have enough tools in my garage to open a machine shop, as well as a few
heavy duty Pfaff sewing machines. There isn't much I can't fabricate myself
so I would rather pay Stan full price if I ever needed anything. As yet,
the only thing I want would be one of those nice all fiberglass tillers. I
will have to check out the parts list. Thanks.

Todd T.

tavares0947 at gmail.com

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 6:31 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

> Todd,
> GBI 29 is the part number of the latest generation traveler on the factory
> website.  One of the e-mail posts has a copy of the part number, catalog
> description, and price taken from the on-line parts catalog.  I started
> using this designation to distinguish the latest generation traveler from
> the 2nd generation traveler.  The 2nd generation traveler is the one with
> the bar that attaches between sockets on the backstays and has the 2:1
> control line tackle rigged from the traveler car to jam cleats on each end
> of the bar.  I used a 2nd generation traveler for many years and upgraded
> to the GBI 29 Traveler 3 seasons ago.  In fact, I still have my old 2nd
> generation traveler in my garage.  The differences between these two
> generations of factory travelers may have slipped thru the cracks during
> the lengthy discussion.  If people are confused about the two different
> generations of factory travelers; then, I apologize.  But, I fear we might
> have just wasted a great deal of time and energy arguing past each other
> about 2 different things.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> From: Todd Tavares<mailto:tavares0947 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 9:24 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications -
> another alternative
>
> So,
>
> How did we arrive at the GBI 29 Traveler designation? Save me from reading
> the 46+ posts.
>
> Todd T.
>
> tavares0947 at gmail.com
>
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:00 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Rick,
> >
> > In all the dozens of posts in this thread, someone said they were busting
> > their knuckles on their traveler.  I don’t remember who.  I remember
> asking
> > what they were hitting their knuckles on.  I don’t think I ever got a
> > response.
> >
> > Can you post a picture of your traveler?  From your last post, it sounds
> > like you don’t have a GBI 29 Traveler.  Rather, you have a 2nd generation
> > traveler modified with cam cleats replacing the OEM standard jam cleats.
> >
> > Roger Pihlaja
> > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >
> > Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> > Windows 10
> >
> > From: Rick Lange<mailto:sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 11:41 AM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler Modifications
> -
> > another alternative
> >
> > Roger,
> >
> > Although dated in that they don't address loose footed mainsails, these
> are
> > interesting videos.  But they miss the mark.
> >
> > The videos are talking about trimming the mainsail for windshifts, not
> > depowering for gusts.  The wind may change direction following a gust,
> but
> > you better know how to focus on the main problem during the gust..
> > Otherwise, you will be sitting in irons down course as I breeze over the
> > finish line.  On the R22, you need to learn how to release the mainsheet
> > when a gust starts heading the boat up and then deal with the traveller
> if
> > needed once the wind dies back.
> >
> > Where did you get the idea that I bust my knuckles on my traveller?  I
> have
> > a 90's vintage one from Stan and it is completely harmless, unlike some
> > others I've experienced.  The only thing is, I switched out the jam
> cleats
> > for cam cleats to more reliably hold the control line and to give better
> > tacktile control pulling the traveller toward me.  And tying together the
> > control line ends makes popping the cleats easy.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rick Lange
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:40 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Rick,
> > >
> > > OK, here’s 2 books on sail trim
> > >
> > > Bill Gladstone, “North U TRIM”, 6th ed, (2007), North U, Madison, CT
> > >
> > > “The North U Fast Couse”, (1990), North U, Milford, CT
> > >
> > > Each of the above are textbooks as part of a North U sailing class and
> > > there are companion videos under the same titles.
> > >
> > > Here’s 2 more videos:
> > >
> > > Peter Bateman, “Sail Trimming Made Easy”, R129, Bennett Marine Video,
> > > Marina Del Ray, CA
> > >
> > > “The Shape Of Speed”, R329, Bennett Marine Video, Marina Del Ray, CA
> > >
> > > One thing you will note in all of these references is that the traveler
> > is
> > > constantly adjusted to maintain the windward/leeward helm balance.  The
> > > traveler is not a digital on/off device, it is constantly used for fine
> > > tuning while underway.  With the traveler and the tiller both under the
> > > control of the helmsman, the Rhodes 22’s helm balance can be adjusted
> on
> > > the fly better than any other boat I’ve ever experienced.  The GBI 29
> > > Traveler has the additional advantage of having sufficient range of
> > motion
> > > and responsiveness to be able to depower the rig in a gust and quickly
> > get
> > > back on line after the gust has passed.  If other boats could do it,
> they
> > > would!  If your GBI-29 Traveler cannot do this; then, you are using it
> > > wrong.  If you are busting your knuckles on your traveler then I can
> only
> > > imagine what unspeakable act you are attempting to commit! 😊
> > >
> > > In general, racing dingies do not have as much range of traveler
> movement
> > > as our Rhodes 22’s.  Since the range of movement is limited, you cannot
> > use
> > > the traveler to depower the main.  Some keelboats also do not have
> > > sufficient range of motion in the traveler.  Some boats are limited by
> > > their traveler design, like the 2nd generation traveler on the Rhodes
> 22,
> > > which had poor ergonomics on the clam cleat placement, thus making it
> > hard
> > > for the helmsman to operate without leaving his preferred hiking
> position
> > > on the windward gunnel.  Some boats have sticky, poorly designed, &/or
> > > placed traveler tracks, thus making it impossible for the helmsman to
> > > constantly play with the traveler.  Name the sailboats, other than the
> > > Rhodes 22, that you’ve sailed that combine sufficient range of traveler
> > > movement to be able to depower the rig, good ergonomics for the
> helmsman,
> > > fast response, and can be operated with one hand.  Off the top of my
> > head,
> > > I can’t think of any.  Our boats are unique.
> > >
> > > The only Rhodes 22 I have access to is S/V Dynamic Equilibrium, a 1976
> > > model.  How about if I spot you 10 sec/nm?
> > >
> > > This thread is getting really long and very old.  Can we please change
> > the
> > > subject?
> > >
> > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > >
> > > From: Graham Stewart<mailto:gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:37 AM
> > > To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler
> Modifications
> > -
> > > another alternative
> > >
> > > Rob: No, my boat did not have anything attached to the back stays that
> > > would
> > > attach to a traveler. I thought that those with the end cups were
> > specially
> > > made. Otherwise, how were the cups attached?
> > >
> > > Graham Stewart
> > > gstewart8 at cogeco.ca
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf
> > > Of
> > > Lowe, Rob
> > > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:25 AM
> > > To: 'Curtis Ruck'; 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler
> Modifications
> > -
> > > another alternative
> > >
> > > Graham,
> > > My first boat was a 1976 and had the traveler bar mounted between two
> > 'bar
> > > end cups' that attached to the back stays.  Is your boat not similarity
> > > equipped? I don't think there was anything special about the backstays.
> > -
> > > Rob
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of
> > > Graham
> > > Stewart <gstewart8 at cogeco.ca>
> > > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 10:11 AM
> > > To: 'Curtis Ruck' <ruckc at yahoo.com>; 'The Rhodes 22 Email List'
> > > <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler
> Modifications
> > -
> > > another alternative
> > >
> > > I have been interested in the traveler discussion. My boat (1976)
> didn't
> > > have a traveler when I got it and the mainsheet was simply attached to
> > the
> > > table base in the cockpit. My backstays are not equipped to install a
> > > traveler and replacing the stays with new ones seemed cost prohibitive
> to
> > > me. Initially I installed a traveler between the lazerette and the
> > cockpit
> > > seats. That worked well enough but made movement around the cockpit
> > > awkward.
> > >
> > > My latest version was to mount the traveler track to a 1" stainless
> steel
> > > tube and fasten that to my stern rail where it would seem to work in a
> > > manner similar to those attached to the back stays. The rail does not
> > flex
> > > like the backstays would but I don't know if that is a good thing or
> not.
> > > While this system seems very strong to me I am no engineer or otherwise
> > > qualified to know.
> > >
> > > For those who are reluctant to pay the cost of both the backstay
> > > replacement
> > > plus the cost of the new traveler this arrangement might be worth
> > > considering.
> > >
> > > I like that the traveler being close to the stern rail means I don't
> have
> > > an
> > > additional barrier to reaching over the stern rail to lift the motor
> and
> > > that it is out of the way when sailing. I don't like the fact the it is
> > > awkward to reach the lee traveler line. Any thought on improvements or
> > > worries about this installation would be welcome.
> > >
> > > Graham Stewart
> > > Agile, Rodes 22, 1976
> > > Kingston Ontario
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rhodes22-list [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On
> > Behalf
> > > Of
> > > Curtis Ruck via Rhodes22-list
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2021 9:45 PM
> > > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> > > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] [Rhodes22e-list] New Traveler
> Modifications
> > >
> > > Hmm, i'll jump in and throw my two cents in, with my 1976 R22.
> > >
> > > When i'm racing in gusty 15+ knots... i am typically sitting on the
> side
> > > rails above the seat, with one hand on the tiller extension and my
> other
> > > fully gloved hand is holding the mainsheet uncleated, and i use that
> hand
> > > to either let slip the mainsheet in a strong gust, or i give and take a
> > > little with my hand holding the mainsheet from flying loose.  I have a
> > > harken 3:1 windward sheeting traveler rail mounted on the back stays.
> I
> > > try to get the mainsheet as flat as possible.  I would never use my
> > > traveler to try controlling the main for gusting, holding the uncleated
> > > mainsheet just feels natural, a little give, a little take, lets me
> feel
> > > like i'm riding with the wind, and it allows instant response.  Though
> on
> > > long races my arms feel it.
> > >
> > > BTW, my traveler setup in the picture.  I mounted the harken traveler
> > rail
> > > on a 1" OD Fiberglass tube with stainless 316 mounts on each end that
> the
> > > backstays run through.  Mounts are attached to the backstay with a
> small
> > > stainless tube slightly larger than the backstay diameter to reduce the
> > > friction wear on the backstays.  I love the setup, but sometimes wish I
> > had
> > > a fixed traveler rail that wasn't floating.
> > >
> > > [image: image.png]
> > >
> > > --
> > > Curtis
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 8:38 PM Shawn Boles <shawn.sustain at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Oh boy, a match race! Much more enjoyable than the obscene, but
> > > > fascinating, America's Cup races I just watched.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Shawn s/v Sweet Baboo (1986/2010)
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 1:49 PM Rick Lange <sloopblueheron at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Roger,
> > > > >
> > > > > I learned to sail and race by taking a college physical education
> > class
> > > > > over 50 years ago.  I've raced dinghies through keel boats,
> including
> > > the
> > > > > R22, and as skipper, have a few blue flags to show for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I accept your challenge to match race R22's with the IMF and
> diamond
> > > > board.
> > > > >
> > > > > I challenge you to produce the videos you said are so common
> > > > demonstrating
> > > > > using the traveller on small sloops to dump wind during gusts
> > > > > that overpower while close hauled.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Rick Lange
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 2:44 PM ROGER PIHLAJA <
> roger_pihlaja at msn.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Rick,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We were having a discussion of mainsail trim and traveler use in
> > > heavy
> > > > > air
> > > > > > wherein the rig needs to be depowered in gusts and then quickly
> > > brought
> > > > > > back on line after the gust has passed.  Mainsail shape for <= 10
> > > knots
> > > > > is
> > > > > > considered light air and is a different subject.  As you noted,
> the
> > > > > optimum
> > > > > > light air mainsail shape is achieved with a different traveler
> car
> > > > > position
> > > > > > and mainsheet tension vs heavy air.  In light air, it is also
> much
> > > less
> > > > > > likely the rig will need to be depowered as per the original
> > > > discussion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is beyond the scope of my job description to give tutorials on
> > > sail
> > > > > > trim in all possible conditions. I suggest you take a class or go
> > > > racing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stan,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I give up!  I've tried to explain the merits of your GBI 29
> > Traveler
> > > to
> > > > > > the best of my ability.  But, it's not working.  If you want to
> > jump
> > > > into
> > > > > > this discussion, go ahead.  But, I'm done.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Roger Pihlaja
> > > > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
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