[Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?

Cary Tolbert retiredtoby at gmail.com
Fri Apr 29 09:17:36 EDT 2022


That sounds nice Roger but where is the fun. It is like FLAG football. Is
it really football?
Cary
S/V Whisper
Claytor Lake, VA

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:02 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> This thread has gotten a bit off topic from the original topic of
> improving upwind performance.  To those whose spouses don’t like heeling,
> get them out on a catamaran and see what they think.  & I don’t mean a
> small beachable cat either.  Beach cats are too easy to capsize.  I mean
> get them out sailing on a big cruising catamaran.  Every year, I take my
> Boy Scout troop out for a day sail on my friend’s 42 ft LOA cat, S/V Now
> What? .   Effortless 7-10 knot cruising speeds under sail with ~4 deg of
> heel, lots of deck space to stretch out on, and no motor sounds.  You do
> have to contend with the “Whooshing”  sound from the twin rooster tails
> coming off the stern.   It’s an expensive solution; but, it will forever
> change the way you look at monohull sailboats.
>
> Roger Pihlaja
> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 28, 2022, at 5:48 PM, Bob Cohen <bobfcohen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dennis -
> >
> > I am just now getting around to reading this very interesting
> conversation.
> >
> > My wife (who is from Detroit) and I live in West Virginia but we have a
> summer house in Arcadia, MI.  A few years ago we bought our first sailboat
> - a 2007 Rhodes 22 - which we keep in Onekama on Portage Lake, with water
> access to Lake Michigan.  We are novices and would like to sail with others
> who have Rhodes experience.
> >
> > If you should want to come Up North this summer, we would welcome you
> and your wife to sail with us.  I can be reached at bobfcohen at gmail.com.
> >
> > Bob Cohen
> > s/v Silver Bay
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
> Dennis McNeely
> > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:13 PM
> > To: 'The Rhodes 22 Email List' <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?
> >
> > Thanks for the invitation Stephen!
> >
> > We still have Magic Moments, our '86 Rhodes 22, but it has been spending
> most of its time hanging in our boat lift. I started some galley retrofits
> in an effort to interest Sandi in sailing, but it was not to be, so now I
> work on the boat from time to time, and when the wind is right for a broad
> reach over to Canada and back I'll drop her in the water and head out. I
> still love the magic moment when I silence the motor and the wind begins to
> drive the boat. <sigh>
> >
> > But... the trawler presents other opportunities for Sandi and I, and
> will better deal with some of Mother Nature's silliness when she blows up 4
> - 6 foot waves on the lake with little notice.
> >
> > And so I lurk here on DaList - sailing vicariously with all of you!
> >
> > Dennis
> > S/V Magic Moments
> > M/V Magic Moments, the Sequel
> >   ... and dinghy Magician's Apprentice
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
> Stephen Staum
> > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 1:13 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind performance?
> >
> > Thanks Dennis.  My wife's first comment when I took her sailing in 2002
> on a Pearson 26 (which has a full heavy keel) was:  This is very nice but
> does it have to tilt like this?
> > I knew I was in trouble.  The next year we got our first Rhodes 22, an
> '87 with IMF.  Needless to say, it is far more tender than the Pearson 26
> (which was a club boat) so I learned to reef early and often.  We are now
> on our 3rd Rhodes.  Last year we bought the s/v Pinafore, a '90 that was
> refurbed by Stan in 2016 and sold our beloved Carol Lee 2.  The CL2 was an
> > '83 that I converted to an IMF main using the mast salvaged from the
> Carol Lee which swamped and turtled in a hurricane in 2011 and was totaled
> by Boat US Insurance.  The Pinafore has the fully enclosed head with flush
> toilet instead of the porta potti, electric motor lift to save my old back
> and a 2016 (very quiet) 4 stroke Evinrude outboard to make motoring to and
> from the mooring far more pleasant than our old (but very reliable)
> screaming 2 stroke.
> >
> > Also worth mentioning,  my wife Carol does not swim well and is
> terrified of the water.  I bought her an offshore automatic inflatable life
> vest when we first started and she has sailed with me almost every weekend
> since.
> > The little boat is our on-the-water summer home.  We often sail with the
> Genoa (now a 130) only and I even reef that if the wind gusts get over 10
> knots.  We survived a sudden squall 2 years ago with 70 mph winds and 5
> foot seas!  I was tethered at the helm with Carol in the cabin with the pop
> top down.  It was terrifying but the seaworthiness of the Rhodes 22 (with
> some credit to the idiot at the helm) carried the day.  Carol even came
> back and sailed with me the following weekend!
> >
> > So Dennis, if you want to give the Rhodes another try, come on out to
> Massachusetts this season and sail with us on the Pinafore.  I don't know
> if I'll get it together but I am scheduled to launch the first week in May
> and the launch service continues 7 days a week from 8 am to 9 pm until
> October 31.  We sail out of the Hingham Shipyard Marina which leads to
> nicely protected waters and the lovely Boston Harbor Islands.  Best weather
> is from July through September.  Let me know if and when you want to come.
> >
> >
> > *Thanks and Stay Well,*
> >
> > *Stephen Staum*
> > *s/v Pinafore*
> >
> > *Needham, MA*
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 11:51 AM Dennis McNeely <
> mcneelyd at site-solutions.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Salute Stephen -
> >> I'm on an island in the Detroit River - in Gibraltar, Michigan. I
> >> really enjoyed my Rhodes 22, but then I met a lady who didn't deal
> >> well with the boat when heeling - so now we have a trawler and I sail
> >> a pair of Detroit Diesels. A bit of a bummer, but I'm still out on the
> >> water, and she's happy with it!
> >> Dennis McNeely
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of
> >> Stephen Staum
> >> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 11:15 AM
> >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind
> performance?
> >>
> >> Dennis that was a great comment.  In addition to performance, I
> >> noticed years ago that my lazerette would fill with water when the
> >> boat sat stern low on the trailer in my yard (it is a slight hill
> >> causing the bow low condition).  It never filled on the mooring as the
> >> boat normally sits with the bow lower.
> >> Where are you from Dennis?
> >>
> >>
> >> *Thanks and Stay Well,*
> >>
> >> *Stephen Staum*
> >> *s/v Pinafore*
> >>
> >> *Needham, MA*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 10:36 AM Dennis McNeely <
> >> mcneelyd at site-solutions.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Greetings all -
> >>> One other thought... if you don't have enough weight forward, the
> >>> bow of the boat can't provide enough lateral resistance to counter
> >>> the force of the sails.
> >>> Put differently, if too much weight is aft, the wind will push the
> >>> sail, mast, and boat forward - but it will also push it sideways.
> >>> That lateral push is countered by your rudder and centerboard, but
> >>> it's also countered by the submerged bow of the boat. If the bow is
> >>> too far out of the water or the stern is submerged too much, trying
> >>> to balance your rig is a non-starter.
> >>> Stated differently, if the stern is weighted down and the bow is
> >>> riding high, you'll be continually pushed off the wind, because you
> >>> won't be able to get the center of effort (the place where the force
> >>> of the wind pushes your boat) over the center of resistance (the
> >>> spot on the keel where the water resists force from the wind).
> >>> The tighter you sail to the wind, the worse the effect will become.
> >>> Having said all the above, I'm back to lurking :) Dennis McNeely
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf
> >>> Of ROGER PIHLAJA
> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2022 8:47 AM
> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind
> performance?
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> Here’s an experiment to determine if you have too much mast rake.
> >>> Assuming light to moderate wind so you can put up full sail,
> >>> establish a close hauled point of sail, and trim both sails as good as
> possible.
> >>> Take note of how much weather helm you have.  Assuming you have the
> >>> IMF mainsail, reef the mainsail a small amount, say 6 inches.
> >>> Reestablish a close hauled point of sail and trim the sails as good
> >>> as possible.  You should now have less weather helm or maybe neutral
> >>> or even lee helm.  Keep reducing mainsail area until you have
> >>> eliminated
> >> all the weather helm.
> >>>
> >>> By shortening the forestay, the weather helm can be tuned out of the
> rig.
> >>> I like the helm to be neutral to very slight lee helm in light air.
> >>> As the wind strength builds, the hull is going to heel over no
> >>> matter how much rail meat you pile onto the windward rail.  I won’t
> >>> go into the physics of why and how; but, the asymmetric wetted shape
> >>> of the heeled over hull just naturally generates weather helm.  You
> >>> counter this tendency towards weather helm by reducing mainsail
> >>> area.  This moves the rig’s center of effort forward and reduces
> weather helm.
> >>> You want to leave the foresail at full area as long as you can keep
> >>> the boat sailing on her lines and use the mainsail area to balance
> >>> the
> >> helm.
> >>>
> >>> In light air, there is very little feel to the helm no matter how
> >>> the rig is tuned.  The easiest point of reference is to have the rig
> >>> tuned for neutral helm, especially for a novice helmsman.  So, even
> >>> though the helmsman isn’t getting any feedback thru the tiller,
> >>> he/she knows to simply center the tiller, and the boat will go
> >>> straight.  As the wind strength builds and sail area is not reduced,
> >>> the hull will begin to heel over, and weather helm will build.  The
> >>> helmsman is now getting plenty of feedback thru the tiller.  If the
> >>> weather helm gets to be tiresome; then, the mainsail area can always
> >>> be reduced to take
> >> the pressure off the tiller.
> >>> Even a few degrees of rudder angle off center develops an amazing
> >>> amount of drag.  This slows the boat down and reduces pointing
> >>> ability.  Remember, the boat is making leeway even when the tiller
> >>> is centered, and this leeway is enough for the shoal draft keel,
> >>> centerboard, and rudder blade to work together to develop the
> >>> required
> >> lift for the boat to be able to point.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>> S/V Dynamic Equilbrium
> >>>
> >>> Sent from Mail<
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=05%7C01%7C%7C7713637c4e974990e5da08da2960d40f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637867793114335541%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hZxNo3h0a1lZA635p3cIqyflTwVxSczA58rMy41fONY%3D&reserved=0>
> for
> >>> Windows
> >>>
> >>> From: ROGER PIHLAJA<mailto:roger_pihlaja at msn.com>
> >>> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:32 PM
> >>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<mailto:rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] How to improve Rhodes 22 upwind
> performance?
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> A couple of things to check:
> >>>
> >>> 1.   Is your centerboard all the way down?
> >>>
> >>> 2.  Is your rudder blade all the way down?
> >>>
> >>> 3.  In 5-15 knots of wind, you should use the mainsheet and traveler
> >>> to center the boom.  Make certain the boom is not rising up and
> >>> there isn’t too much curl on the leech.  Make certain the mainsail
> >>> foot out haul is tight.  Without battens, there is only so much you
> >>> can do with mainsail shape; but, this will set you up to do the best
> >>> that is
> >> possible.
> >>>
> >>> 4.  Use your backstay adjuster to get the sag out of the forestay.
> >>> It takes quite a lot of tension on the backstays to remove the
> forestay sag.
> >>> Don’t be afraid of cranking on the backstay adjuster.  A mast head
> >>> rig needs the forestay to have little sag in order to properly form
> >>> an efficient slot with the mainsail.
> >>>
> >>> 5.  Refer to my rig tuning procedure in the archives to adjust the
> >>> tension in the standing rigging.
> >>>
> >>> The Rhodes 22 sails best to weather if it is regarded like a big
> >>> sailing dingy, as upright as possible.  There should be zero to very
> >>> slight weather helm.  If you have too much weather helm; then reduce
> >>> the
> >> mast rake angle.
> >>> ie Make the mast rake more perpendicular to the deck.
> >>>
> >>> My guess is you have too much mast rake, which is giving you a lot
> >>> of weather helm, and killing your ability to point to weather.
> >>>
> >>> Hopefully, these suggestions help.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Pihlaja
> >>> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>>> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:49 PM, mm.bizlist1 at gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi All,
> >>>>
> >>>> Now that I've been sailing my Rhodes for about a year, I'm
> >>>> starting to focus on getting the best performance out of her.
> >>>> While I mostly sail for fun, I do race every couple of weeks and
> >>>> want to be more competitive.  In particular, I have found that she
> >>>> does not go to
> >>> windward very well for me.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I have a 130 genoa and the IMF mainsail.  Until very recently, I
> >>>> have been routing the jib sheets outside of the outer shrouds and
> >>>> handrails. That limits how much I can trim the genoa.
> >>>> Consequently, I can only tack through about 100-120o.
> >>>>
> >>>> Recently, I tried running the jib sheets between the outer shrouds
> >>>> and the inner shrouds.  That definitely improved my pointing
> >>>> ability significantly at the expense of less than optimal headsail
> >>>> shape on some off wind points of sail.  However, this
> >>>> configuration lets me use my jib cars to adapt to wind strength
> >>>> and whether or not I am partially reefed.  I think this will
> >>>> retain the ability to use a whisker
> >>> pole on downwind legs.
> >>>>
> >>>> I did briefly try both of the inboard jib sheet fairlead/cleat
> >>>> alternatives but using those would seem to require having a second
> >>>> set of jib sheets and probably going on the foredeck to switch
> >>>> between them after rounding a mark (I often race solo).  Also,
> >>>> those options eliminate the ability to control the sheeting angle
> >>>> to the clew with the
> >>> jib cars.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts and comments about what you
> >>>> have learned about how to optimize your boat's performance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike McKay
> >>>> s/v Liber (2006/2018)
> >>>> Allatoona Lake
> >>>> Acworth, GA
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>


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