[Rhodes22-list] Politics: Najibullah

[Steve Alm]

Thanks Bill,

Very interesting and informed comments.  I go crazy when I look at the
historical flip-flopping the US has done with these groups.  Similar
paradoxes throughout South America. (Rolling Stones song, "Under Cover"
banned in South America)  Less concern for freedom and democracy and more
about raw business.  My wife lived in Brazil during their military
dictatorship and actually knew several people who "disappeared."

On the drug trade, here's another one of my wacky ideas:
In the big US cities, various gangs fight over turf and, let's call it
"product."  When conflicts arise, gang members tend to rely on that most
primary strategy of conflict resolution, murder.  In Afghanistan, as you so
articulately described, same thing--gangs, turf and product.  Now, on a
world-wide scale, the nations are the gangs and the product is the oil.  The
world is addicted to this product and we'll fight to the death to get our
fix.  The conflict resolution strategy is the same.  When all else fails,
just shoot 'em.  This is human nature at it's most basic.  Hasn't changed in
tens of thousands of years.  The term "Civilized Society" surely seems to be
an oxymoron.

Sorry to be so cynical but I was just listening to a report suggesting that
Hollywood violence is corrupting our youth.  I think it's the evening news
that's simply informing them on how mature adults solve their problems.

Sorry, sorry.  I think I'll take my medication now.  :-/

On a happier note, enjoy the Stones!  We want a full report. Think of this
thread when they do "Sympathy For the Devil."  X-Gov. Ventura's favorite
song. ;-)
Slim

On 1/17/03 2:36 PM, "Bill Effros" <bill@effros.com> wrote:

> Slim,
> 
> Actually, I think the last middle eastern military dictator to fall was
> Najibullah in Afghanistan who was backed by the then Soviet Union.  The
> United States, with brilliant forethought and planning, sent money, provided
> weapons, and set up training areas in remote regions of Afghanistan for a
> group of Muslim fanatics, many imported from other countries, we called the
> "Mujahadeen", who were able to down Soviet helicopters with Stinger missiles
> we provided.  One of the leaders of the "Mujahadeen" was a fellow named
> Osama
> Bin Laden.
> 
> When the Soviets had enough, and left; Najibullah was killed, and the
> "Mujahadeen" started fighting over the spoils.  In Afghanistan the only way
> to earn real money is by controlling the opium trade, and that is what the
> "Warlords" fought over.  Various regions were taken over by Warlords, and
> run in a feudal manner as they had been since time immemorial.  These
> fiefdoms were financed by opium trade money.
> 
> Other "Mujahadeen" who had been fighting the Soviets for the ouster of
> secular governments and against foreign intervention in Arab countries, took
> control of the training areas, and mountain caves we had set up, which were
> of no interest or value to the "Warlord" group.  This group, which coalesced
> under the name "Al Quida" saw the retreat of the Soviet Union as just the
> first of a string of victories sure to come.  They continued to train,
> finance and ship fighters, along with our weapons, all over the world, to
> advance their agenda.
> 
> Most of the Afghan foot soldiers simply returned to their towns and villages
> all over Afghanistan, bringing with them their late 20th century weapons,
> which allowed them to erect "toll booths" throughout the country from which
> they collected revenues from anyone attempting to go from any place to any
> other place.  "Law and Order" was never Afghanistan's long suit.
> 
> The country became wilder and woollier than the wildest our West ever got.
> Afghanistan was soon the leading source of heroin in the world.  The United
> States was deeply enmeshed in our last war, the "War on Drugs", and we soon
> discovered, much to our chagrin, that some of our former allies in
> Afghanistan, who had humiliated the Russians at our behest, had now become
> some of the leading suppliers of drugs in the world.
> 
> Something had to be done.  So we went to the religious teaching centers (men
> only) in southern Afghanistan, called "Madrassas", and recruited a
> fundamentalist group called the "Taliban" offering to equip them if only
> they would bring some semblance of  "Law and Order" to the country.  We
> agreed not to meddle with the way they ran the country's affairs, if they
> would agree to eradicate the opium trade.
> 
> The bargain was struck, and each side was true to its word.  We supplied the
> Taliban, they killed and dismembered highwaymen, warlords, and anyone
> growing poppies.  In almost no time, Afghanistan fell from the ranks of
> major opium producers.  Taliban rule was harsh, but hey--if they had trains
> they would have run on time.  The Warlords lost their grip throughout
> Afghanistan and were pushed into the northern provinces where they fought
> losing battles against the Taliban.
> 
> Then came 9/11 and we noticed, almost for the first time, that Al Quida
> might be an even bigger problem than the drug trade.  We told our former
> allies, the Taliban, who had scrupulously upheld their end of the bargain,
> that we were changing the terms.  They had to capture and hand over the
> leader of Al Quida, the self-same Osama Bin Laden, or we would switch sides
> and support the nefarious "Warlords" whom we had been vilifying for the past
> several years.  The Taliban lacked the means to fight both the home grown
> Warlords and the imported Al Quida.  What's more, they had no quarrel with
> Al Quida who, over the years, had lent logistical support, men, money, and
> weapons to the Taliban in their fight with the Warlords.
> 
> Slim, are you still with me?
> 
> The rest, as they say, is history.  The Taliban are back in their Madrassas
> teaching the younger generations to hate us.  Al Quida is back in their
> caves teaching and exporting terrorism.  And the Warlords (whom we now call
> "The Northern Alliance") are back in Kabul dealing dope.
> 
> Next week:  The rise of the Baathist Party and Saddam Hussein in Iraq
> (thanks to our brilliant global strategy, weapons supply, and financing) and
> the successful thwarting of Iran's attempt to oust Saddam Hussein.  (I'm not
> exactly sure, but I think Iran is now one of our allies vs. Iraq, but one of
> our opponents in Afghanistan...........)
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Bill Effros
> 
> PS -- Going to see the Stones tomorrow night.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Alm" <salm@mn.rr.com>
> To: "Rhodes" <rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 4:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes, Politics, & Fables
> 
> 
> This disclaimer thing is cracking me up but it seems to be working.  It's
> not getting all funky like it did the last time and I think it won't blow up
> at all. :-)  DELEAT NOW!
> 
> I'm a middle aged boomer, middle income, self-employed gigger and I think I
> get taxed to death.  I have to pay both halves of the S.S. Tax, (about 11.X%
> right off the top) 1/3 income tax bracket even after pumping as much as I
> can into my IRA's pre-taxed--no capitol gains for me--it all just rolls back
> in.  No disability insurance, no unemployment safety net.  No group health
> insurance, and, as an individual, the best health policy money can buy still
> sucks.  At least now it's deductible.  But a catastrophic medical situation
> would probably wipe me out.  Frankly, I feel pretty vulnerable.
> 
> The good news is that my job is pretty recession-proof.  When times get
> tough, people gotta go out and hoist a few and that's where I come in.
> Somewhere, somebody's always happy to hear "Bye, Bye Miss American Pie"
> because it takes us back to our youth, a simpler time, and gives us comfort.
> Sniff...I'm proud to do my part for the American spirit.
> 
> ...Even if they do vomit on my shoes.
> 
> It's difficult for me to untangle all the ramifications of macro economic
> change in tax codes, but I doubt I'll be looking at much of a change for me.
> No more rebate checks from Gov. Ventura, property tax will stay about the
> same, some user fees will go up and services will go way down.  I'll still
> cough up about the same.
> 
> WARNING:  THIS IS REALLY THE TIME TO DELEAT.
> 
> Because of our two party system, trends in economics and business swing like
> a pendulum.  In the bear market whirlwind of the 90's, with so much business
> popping up, especially  .coms,  unemployment was low and companies had to
> pay higher wages for help, if they could find any at all.  Computer techs
> were commanding 30K and benefits right out of college.  Good for the labor
> force but not good for the big, bottom-liners.  Now, did you feel the
> pendulum switch directions the day Bush took office?  Just like
> magic...Poof!  Economic crisis!  A little creative accounting and the big
> businesses can post losses and lay off thousands.  A few CEO's were thrown
> to the lions as sacrificial lambs but most are unscathed.  Unemployment goes
> up, people get desperate and the companies can hire them right back, but at
> a lower wage.  Loosen the environmental laws and the energy companies can
> get a leg up.  BTW, if the Alaska oil drilling proposal goes through, who do
> you suppose will get the contract?  Could it be...a Texas company?
> 
> WARNING:  THIS IS REALLY, REALLY, REALLY THE TIME TO DELEAT.
> 
> Taxes, taxes, taxes.  Anyone want to talk about foreign policy?  The two
> parties argue until they're blue in the face on domestic issues, but
> interestingly, the congress has always been pretty unified on our foreign
> affairs.  My prediction: We WILL invade Iraq regardless of what the
> inspectors find and regardless of UN approval.  We may succeed in ousting
> Saddam but that will only create a vacuum and it's anybody's guess after
> that.  The last middle East military dictator to fall was another guy we
> helped into power, The Shaw of Iran.  The pendulum swing in Iran then put
> the religious cleric, Ayatollah Kohmeini (sp) in charge.  Would that happen
> in a post-Saddam Iraq?  Would that trigger an all-out holy war (World War)
> between Muslim and Judeo/Christians.?  If Lieberman was elected president
> (slim chance) how would that play on the world stage?
> 
> Songwriter, political humorist Tom Lehrer said political humor has taken on
> a whole new dimension ever since Henry Kissinger and Yasser Arafat won the
> Nobel Piece Prize.  (cough, cough)
> 
> Slim
> 
> 
> On 1/16/03 5:58 PM, "Todd Tavares" <sprocket80@mail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Same disclaimer as everyone else.....delete if not interested.
>> 
>>   I am so poor, I can not afford to pay attention to this thread.
>> 
>>  Boo hooo,  it's the poor ones like me who are discriminated against by
> the
>> tax laws.  I just want to grab a case of beer and go sailing.   But I have
> got
>> to first pay my sin tax on the beer, and the luxury tax on my boat.  ;^(
>> sniff.... sniff    lmao
>> 
>> (JOKING of course)
>> 
>> Todd
>> 
>> P.S.  who wagered it would be Thursday?
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rik Sandberg" <sanderico@earthlink.net>
>> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:57:20 -0600
>> To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes, Politics, & Fables
>> 
>>> Same disclaimer as everyone else.....delete if not interested.
>>> 
>>> Ahh....the ever controversial Bill
>>> 
>>> I hope this truly was said "tongue in cheek". If not, then you and your
>>> neighbors have much to be proud of.
>>> 
>>> It's things like this, that make me favor doing away with personal income
>>> tax altogether and instituting a pure sales tax, with an exemption for
> the
>>> basic staples in the grocery store and a few other things like maybe
>>> clothing (conservative) and medical care (non-elective). With a system
> like
>>> this, if one insists on having the fancy and expensive things normally
>>> associated with the rich, he pays the taxes that should be assessed from
> the
>>> rich. Those who choose to live conservatively and save for later, or are
>>> unable to do more than "just get by" would pay very little, just as they
>>> should. But there's one thing that's for sure, no matter what you
> make....as
>>> soon as you spend big money, you pay big taxes.
>>> 
>>> Spoken as someone who contributes his fair share and the shares of a few
>>> others too.
>>> 
>>> Probably contributing to the eventual blow-up, but...........oh well.
>>> 
>>> Rik
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill@effros.com>
>>> To: "R22 List" <rhodes22-list@rhodes22.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 8:50 AM
>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Taxes, Politics, & Fables
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Paul,
>>>> 
>>>> Keep those fables coming!
>>>> 
>>>> Here in Greenwich, Ct. my neighbors and I can't believe how many people
>>> seem
>>>> to be willing to pay our taxes for us!  Tax law revisions don't change
> the
>>>> total amount that must be collected to pay for what the government
> spends,
>>>> they only change the proportions of who pays how much.  So if our taxes
> go
>>>> down, somebody else's taxes are going up.
>>>> 
>>>> So far, Mr. Bush has already saved most of us, here in Greenwich,
>>> literally
>>>> millions of dollars in taxes.  Each.  The "Death Tax" fable worked like
> a
>>>> charm.
>>>> 
>>>> Now we get to belly up to the trough yet again, with the "Double
> Taxation"
>>>> fable.  Make no mistake, most of our money has never been taxed even
> once.
>>>> We are among the four diners who have always eaten for nothing, because
>>>> under the current tax law system we have been able to show the other
>>>> diners that we are the poorest by repeatedly deferring our income from
> one
>>>> year to the next. (We can do that because we don't take home
>>>> regular paychecks--according to our tax returns we don't earn a cent.)
>>>> 
>>>> The only problem is that, eventually, we stand to get hit with a tax
> that
>>> is
>>>> actually proportional to what we have earned.  But no!  Fables to the
>>>> rescue!  It worked once--could it possibly work again?  If this tax law
> 
>>>> revision passes as proposed, neither we, nor our families, may ever have
>>> to
>>>> pay
>>>> federal taxes on most of the money we have earned so far in our entire
>>>> lives!  We can dine for nothing forever!
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you, thank you, thank you,
>>>> 
>>>> Bill Effros
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _________________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> _________________________________________________
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> 
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