[Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goals

Sun Sep 26 07:05:20 EDT 2004

Wally & Bill,

Time to pack so here's a quick link to an old sailor
discussing democracy in Iraq and some of the issues
you mention.

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/wfb200409241328.asp

Wally, Baptist snake handlers?  I thought they were
Pentecostal.  Do you realize how many Baptist churches
there are in Memphis.  Now I have something else to
worry about.

Brad 

--- Bill Effros <bill at effros.com> wrote:

> Wally,
> 
> I agree on VC.  My point was that they started out
> with nothing to fight with, and were able to hold us
> off until our real enemies reinforced them.  The
> Iraqis started out with huge ammo dumps all over the
> country and we didn't have enough guys to even guard
> the ammo or blow it up.  Too late now.  And we are
> talking about major weapons, here, not sharpened
> bamboo sticks.
> 
> There are a billion with a "B" Muslims out there. 
> If each one contributes just 1 bullet to fight
> against us, we've got a problem that won't ever go
> away.
> 
> As to the Kurds, there are as many of them as there
> are Iraqis.  They are not Arabs.  They are not
> Turks.  They are not Iranians.  But they are large
> minorities in Iraq, Iran, and Turkey.  They are
> trying to carve their own homeland out of all 3
> countries.  For the Arabs it's another Israel.  Only
> there are 3 times as many Kurds as there are Jews. 
> It's one of the few things Iraq, Iran and Turkey can
> agree on--no independence for Kurds. 
> 
> Bill 
> 
> (PS -- The boundaries the Kurds are fighting for are
> extremely oil-rich which just might have something
> to do with why we back them so strongly.)
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Wally Buck 
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org 
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goals
> 
> 
> Brad & Bill
> 
> Bill is right here. Iraq was ruled by the Bathist
> (sic?) party made up of 
> Sunnis. If it comes down to a vote most likely a
> Shite will win. The Shites 
> are the fundamental extremists. Shites do not
> believe in seperation of 
> church and state. Shites are like our Baptist snake
> handlers, The are "old 
> school' muslims and they hate our guts. Take a look
> at Iran if you want an 
> example. Religous differences are one of the reasons
> Bin Laden was not a fan 
> of Iraq.
> 
> Bill the VC may had started with bamboo spears but
> they were well armed by 
> the USSR and China. I do agree that we have created
> a mess in Iraq with no 
> easy solutions. Knee jerk reactions usually have a
> bad ending. Terror 
> tactics are designed to create terror. Scared and
> angry people make poor 
> decisions. In our case the country was attacked by
> Saudi Arabian terrorists 
> so we attacked Iraq, Now the Chechnan (sic?)
> terrorists have killed Russian 
> school children will Russia attack Iran?
> 
> And what about the Kurds? Why do they all hate the
> Kurds? There are no easy 
> answers.
> 
> Wally
> 
> >From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> >Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list"
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goals
> >Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:37:52 -0400
> >
> >Brad,
> >
> >What are you talking about?:
> >
> >"The defeat of radical Islam is our goal. Iraq is
> but one battle."
> >
> >Iraq wasn't a radical Islamic state, it was
> secular, and we spent a lot of 
> >money on Saddam Hussein to keep it that way. 
> Granted he was not a nice 
> >man, but by overthrowing him we have created a
> radical Islamic state--just 
> >the opposite of what you state as "our" goal.
> >
> >If we let the Iraqis vote, the radical Islamists
> win.  If we don't let them 
> >vote, we create a civil war that will determine who
> gets the oil and then 
> >they will create 1 or more radical Islamic states.
> >
> >All of this costs us a fortune in people and
> taxpayer dollars.  It's a 
> >lose-lose-lose-lose.  I can't see a winning
> scenario, can you?
> >
> >We can't afford any more battles like this one, and
> no matter who wins the 
> >election in the United States we're eventually
> going to head back to 
> >isolationism for a generation to make sure there
> are no more battles like 
> >this one.  I don't think that's right either, but I
> can't see any other 
> >realistic scenario, can you?
> >
> >We are running out of soldiers, plain and simple. 
> This country is not 
> >going to go for a Vietnam era style draft, and
> planeloads full of body 
> >bags.
> >
> >The population of South Vietnam was substantially
> less than the current 
> >population of Iraq.  They started by fighting us
> with sharpened bamboo 
> >sticks.  We were never able to "pacify" or
> "Vietnamize" that country--even 
> >though we inserted 4 times as many troops as we now
> have in Iraq.
> >
> >We are not going to do that again, and we are not
> going to do this again.  
> >The only question is how will we extricate
> ourselves from the current mess 
> >with the least long term damage.  No matter how you
> slice it, the least 
> >long term damage is going to be a lot of damage.
> >
> >Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: brad haslett
> >To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> >Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 11:49 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Politics: Goals
> >
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >After posting early this morning,  I began
> searching
> >through my library for "Sleeping With the Devil:How
> >Washington Sold Our Soul for Crude", by Robert Baer
> >for a reference.  It seems this book has developed
> >"feet", or perhaps it was loaned, or my 2 1/2 year
> old
> >re-shelved it for me.  Anyway, I stumbled across a
> >different  book that is a collection of essays
> written
> >shortly after 9/11.  The author of "An Autum of
> War",
> >Victor Hanson, is a professor of Classical Studies
> at
> >California State University - Fresno.  Professor
> >Hanson stated in an essay written December 2001
> what I
> >think is the essense of my argument supporting the
> war
> >in Iraq.
> >
> >"Nearly all the promised utopias of the
> past-facism,
> >communism, third-world liberationist kleptocracy,
> and
> >Islamic theocracy-have now had their day and failed
> >miserably before the eyes of billions.  A
> Westernized
> >and secular minority in the Middle East knows that
> the
> >future lies only with freedom and democracy.  While
> >hostile in a variety of ways to America, it is
> perhaps
> >still the only hope of millions.  America must
> stand
> >ready to go to war with any country of the region
> that
> >kills our citizens, and stand aloof from all the
> >illegitimate governments of the Middle East
> Bloc..."
> >
> >As President Bush stated last week to the UN, " For
> >too long, many nations, including my own,
> tolerated,
> 
=== message truncated ===

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