[Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2 (for Chris G.)
Chris Geankoplis
napoli68 at charter.net
Sun Aug 28 23:58:53 EDT 2005
Philip,
You can see how this boat engenders pasions like very few others.
One thing everyone on this list does agree on .....it is a great boat and
more than that a magic carpet. Unless you are very skilled, or have a lot
of time to learn, your choice of new or recycled is a wise choice. Good
luck you will have such a goooood time!
Chris G
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Esteban" <3drecon at comcast.net>
To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 8:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2 (for Chris G.)
> Chris,
> I was only asking philosophically in the context of the "argument". My
wife
> and I hope to purchase a Rhodes new or recycled as soon as we work out
some
> of the logistics. I don't want to see anything happen to GBI before we
buy,
> or after for that matter. We think the Rhodes is a great product.
>
> Philip
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of Chris Geankoplis
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:42 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
>
>
> Phil,
> I think not, my old F150's seat is worn out so I bought seat covers
and
> they are not from Ford. In 1968 I was sailing around the Med in an 18
foot
> lightning and would raise the floor boards up and place them in special
> sockets at the level of the bench seats, put custom cushions over them
> which created one giant bed (with the centerboard cap dividing the bed
> somewhat. Now this is the concept of "filler cushions" and is not unique
to
> a Rhodes, iwith my current Rhodes I made my own cushions, not as nice as
> Stan's but they are serviceable, and I have no problem doing so. But,
> something as specific as the Boomroom or Poptop cover is Stan's and that
is
> a no brainer, he designed them and the solution (the best in this case) is
> his design, so he gets his dues. There is no way we can write a set of
> rules, rather we use our best judgment and follow our consciences.
> Chris G.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Esteban" <3drecon at comcast.net>
> To: "'The Rhodes 22 mail list'" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:01 AM
> Subject: RE: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
>
>
> > Another philosophical question. You own an automobile and the seats
wear
> > out. You price reupholstering and decide to do it yourself. Do you owe
> the
> > car manufacturer a royalty?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
> > [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org]On Behalf Of Chris Geankoplis
> > Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 10:44 PM
> > To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> > Well thought out recap and questions. I have a feeling there is
> no
> > black or white for a lot of the area you have covered. It will, in the
> end,
> > boil down to a person's values and personal beliefs. I can't speak for
> > others but if it is a unique "Stan design" than Stan should get his due.
> > Sometimes you don't sell a product but rather a solution to a problem.
> > Often there is one problem and many soultions, and what is so true for
> this
> > boat is Stan's is often (but not always) the best. I guess to quote
Spike
> > Lee "do the right thing" which for each person may be quite different.
> > Chris G
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
> > To: "The Rhodes 22 mail list" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:31 PM
> > Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Stans Lament 2
> >
> >
> > > Wally,
> > >
> > > This entire extended thread works off Stan's Lament posted previously.
> > >
> > > As I understood what Stan said, he was lamenting the fact that it
hurts
> > > him, both psychologically and materially, when people pick his brains
> > > and then work around him to buy his product from someone else without
> > > ever compensating him for all the time and effort he has put into the
> > deal.
> > >
> > > Stan put forth the idea of paying him a commission for boat resales,
> > > even if he had no direct part in the deal. Many people said they
> > > thought that was a good idea, but none of the people who thought it
was
> > > a good idea were actually selling a boat. Everyone thought it was a
> > > good idea for someone else to send Stan money for doing nothing.
> > >
> > > Then someone had an idea of writing a book, and instead of making
money
> > > on the book, letting Stan get the money because the book was about
> > > Stan's boat.
> > >
> > > Brad suggested that maybe we could outsource some of Stan's
> > > non-essential parts to China so Stan could sell more of these
> > > accessories, have less direct responsibility for their manufacture,
and
> > > make the same amount on every item sold.
> > >
> > > So now I am asking the question, and it's just a question, of whether
> > > people feel this concept should extend even to things we make for
> > > ourselves where we use Stan's design as a template. Should Stan get a
> > > royalty on these things? Your Boom Room is not a copy of Stan's Boom
> > > Room. It performs the same function. It works for you. You and
Roger
> > > spent time working it out. If I copy your idea, should I send you
> > > something for your time and trouble? Would you have had the idea for
a
> > > Boom Room if you never saw Stan's?
> > >
> > > If you copy Stan's cushions, should you send Stan something for his
time
> > > and trouble?
> > >
> > > Of course, this is all on the honor system. Stan never patented or
> > > copyrighted his work. But we are honorable people. Is this the right
> > > thing to do?
> > >
> > > The guy who patented the intermittent windshield wiper died a multi
> > > millionaire after suing virtually every automobile maker in world for
> > > infringing on his patent by developing and deploying their own
> > > intermittent windshield wipers.
> > >
> > > I am willing to bet you anything that you wouldn't come up with the
> > > right specs on cockpit cushions the first time you tried without using
> > > Stan's cushions as a template. You are not even thinking of trying
> > > this. I'm sure Stan didn't come up with the right specs the first
time,
> > > either. Should you pay a royalty for the work you copy? In the
> > > computer field you are constantly paying royalties to copy things you
> > > could copy and use for nothing. Why doesn't this extend to boats?
> > >
> > > I am sure you can make less expensive cockpit cushions that are
> > > perfectly satisfactory from your point of view compared to the cockpit
> > > cushions Stan has offered to sell to you--if you copy Stan's. If you
> > > make them from your own design, and go through your own trial and
error,
> > > I don't think you will be able to develop the first set of cockpit
> > > cushions for less than Stan has offered them to you.
> > >
> > > I think this is Stan's lament. It is shared by many creative
pioneers,
> > > and often sinks their businesses. After they figure things out, make
> > > prototypes, develop manufacturing, finance inventory, etc. somebody
else
> > > comes along and says "I can copy that for less than you are willing to
> > > sell it to me."
> > >
> > > How do we feel about Stan's Lament when it directly impacts our own
> > > costs? Are we willing to send money to Stan for knocking off his
> > > designs--even if we are only doing it for our own boat? Did you buy
> > > your cushions from Stan originally, or did you buy them from someone
> > > else, and now that they have worn out you want to knock off Stan's
> > > design and rebuild them yourself?
> > >
> > > Apparently everyone takes this question as a personal attack. It is
> > > meant as a philosophical question. For my part, I am willing to pay
> > > full price for Stan's boom room and use my boom room to make more
booms
> > > rooms that can be sold at a lower price to other people on this list
> > > provided that Stan makes at least as much money as he would have
> > otherwise.
> > >
> > > I do not always behave this way, but I happen to like this man, and I
> > > happen to like his product. What do you think? I will not judge you
> > > depending on how you answer. You may think I'm a crackpot. You may
> > > think my philosophical question is fine theoretically, but that you
need
> > > to save money and you can do so by copying Stan's design instead of
> > > buying the cushions from Stan, or asking to buy a set of plans from
him.
> > >
> > > I can understand these answers to my question. But I think these are
> > > the questions Stan is asking of the entire list, and I think the
> > > questions deserve a response. Failing to get that response, I can
also
> > > understand why Stan would decide to pull the plug on our list to make
it
> > > more difficult for people to spread the knowledge Stan has given us
for
> > > nothing to people who think it is OK to use that knowledge to deprive
> > > Stan of the ability to make money on his own products.
> > >
> > > Just one man's opinion, but I'd love to hear what you and others
think.
> > >
> > > Bill Effros
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Wally Buck wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bill, I have no idea what you are talking about? I thought your
crazy
> > > > scheme had Stan selling the Chinese parts? Are you still talking
about
> > > > cushions? Anne and others gave the GB cushions 2 thumbs up. I have
> > > > already gotten pricing from Stan and I am considering purchase verse
> > > > homemade. Are you suggesting that one should not make their own
> > > > replacement cushions.....Are you the riddler? :-) Serioulsy Bill
you
> > > > have lost me.
> > > >
> > > > Stan and GB have no worries from me. Not much chance i will be
making
> > > > R22 cushions for resale.
> > > >
> > > > Wally
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > > >> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> > > >> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:04:30 -0400
> > > >>
> > > >> Wally,
> > > >>
> > > >> I interpreted Stan's Lament as a plea to get something for his
> > > >> troubles (read "intellectual property"). When it came to selling
the
> > > >> boat off-list, everyone said sure, they thought other people should
> > > >> send Stan 5%.
> > > >>
> > > >> What about copying his designs? Should Stan get 5% of his list
price
> > > >> when people use his designs as a template and make them for
> themselves?
> > > >>
> > > >> I think we know each other well enough for you to know I do not
> > > >> intend this as a personal attack on you. (Nor did I intend to
attack
> > > >> Todd, Lou, Roger, Alan, or any of the other people on this list who
> > > >> have used Stan's designs as a template and not compensated Stan.)
> > > >>
> > > >> I ask you this question as an honest inquiry to a lament posted by
> > > >> Stan, and I ask you to think about it.
> > > >>
> > > >> This is not an easy questions, and I am not "Mr. Clean" on this
> > > >> issue. I steal intellectual property from others--just not from
> Stan.
> > > >>
> > > >> Bill Effros
> > > >>
> > > >> Wally Buck wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Bill, Thanks for your response. To clarify. I have cushions in
> > > >>> cockpit now but they are shot. I do like the folding chairs but I
> > > >>> would rather put that money toward new cushions.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I was wondering if you added all of these other seating devices
> > > >>> because the cushions were uncomfortable. Your first description of
> > > >>> seating arrangements didn't mention comfort of cockpit cushions
> > > >>> alone. Your solution would have me purchasing 2 Captains Chairs, 2
> > > >>> bean bag chairs, and 2 folding chairs from West along with all new
> > > >>> cockpit cushions. That is not an option.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> i like an uncluttered cockpit as well as uncluttered cabin. Anne
> > > >>> says her GB cushions are comfortable so that answered my question.
> :-)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Wally
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Lawn is mowed - NOW I am off to lake!
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > > >>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> > > >>>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:49:00 -0400
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Wally,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I guess I never even considered sailing without cushions on the
> > > >>>> fiberglass benches. Even though I frequently sail single handed,
> > > >>>> and always sail from Captain's Seats, I always put out Stan's
> > > >>>> cushions--every single time. They are part of the boat, as far
as
> > > >>>> I'm concerned. I think the proportions of everything are better
> > > >>>> for sailing when the cushions are in place. Also, as noted
> > > >>>> previously, I don't bang myself up as much with the cushions
> > > >>>> protecting me from harder surfaces.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I only sit on the cushions when hove-to, or at anchor, and I
guess
> > > >>>> they are comfortable, enough. But they are not as comfortable as
> > > >>>> the cushions with bean bag chairs on top of them, or the cushions
> > > >>>> with "Elton's" folding seats on top of them. (I never put the
bean
> > > >>>> bag chairs or folding seats directly on the fiberglass
> > > >>>> benches--that is not as comfortable as Stan's cushions alone.)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> When guests come aboard my boat they always marvel at how
> > > >>>> comfortable they all are--not just the person who grabs the other
> > > >>>> Captain's seat. My boat has 6 comfortable seats while sailing.
> > > >>>> They are all based on putting Stan's cockpit cushions over the
hard
> > > >>>> benches. Since I sail the boat upright, people do not shift back
> > > >>>> and forth every time I tack. They find a comfortable seat, and
> > > >>>> stay in it for the entire ride.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> My cockpit, with Stan's cushions and my additional seats, is more
> > > >>>> comfortable for all of the passengers and crew than any other
boat
> > > >>>> I've ever been in.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Bill Effros
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> I would be using Stan's cockpit cushions for seating. Are they
> > > >>>>> confortable?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Wally
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > > >>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Cockpit Cushions
> > > >>>>>> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:37:29 -0400
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Wally,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I have Stan's cockpit cushions. I almost never sit directly on
> > > >>>>>> them. I generally sit in a captain's chair, with my feet on
the
> > > >>>>>> cushions. I also have 2 folding seats (available from West for
> > > >>>>>> around $50), and 2 beanbag chairs purchased from the beanbag
lady
> > > >>>>>> at a boat show for around $75 each. All 6 seats can be
> > > >>>>>> comfortably deployed simultaneously. Each seat is more
> > > >>>>>> comfortable than any seat that comes standard in any sailboat
> > > >>>>>> I've ever been on.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Stan's cushions fit perfectly, and have proved very durable.
> > > >>>>>> They are 7 years old and still look brand new. I store them
> > > >>>>>> (along with all the other seats) on the settee when not in use.
> > > >>>>>> I put them out immediately every time I go on board. This
takes
> > > >>>>>> around 14 seconds. I like them for kneeling when I am pulling
in
> > > >>>>>> anchors or putting out fenders. Every now and again I kneel to
> > > >>>>>> do something after I have put away the cushions. Boy those
seats
> > > >>>>>> are hard!
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Bill Effros
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Bill, It is hard to guess what I would want to spend. You need
> > > >>>>>>> to determine production and shipping costs. From there add the
> > > >>>>>>> desired mark up. That is the price. I am sure GB does not want
> > > >>>>>>> to carry large cost for inventory. I would suspect that prices
> > > >>>>>>> could be quoted for different sizes. Get quotes for 5, 10 25,
> > > >>>>>>> each. I have no idea who to go to for "quotes" in China but
it
> > > >>>>>>> sounds like there might be folks on this list that do.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Initially I would want new cockpit cushions with fill in. Also
> > > >>>>>>> cabin cushions. I am considering doing this myself. I am also
> > > >>>>>>> getting price locally. One drawbck to doing them myself is the
> > > >>>>>>> most likely will look like crap. Having them done locally
means
> > > >>>>>>> I can test foam and not pay shipping. Ordering from GB means
> > > >>>>>>> they will fit right but I don't want standard foam. In the
cabin
> > > >>>>>>> I want to go with 3 inches of foam with 1 inch of memory foam
> > > >>>>>>> glued on top side. I have seen cushions made this way and they
> > > >>>>>>> are great for sleeping and sitting. I am still working on best
> > > >>>>>>> foam for cockpit (with fill in).
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Wally
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > > >>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
<rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> > > >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:02:44 -0400
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Wally,
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Can you put numbers on your desires? I mean this quite
> > > >>>>>>>> seriously. I know you use your boat, and I know you want to
be
> > > >>>>>>>> fair to Stan. At what price would you buy various items from
> > > >>>>>>>> Stan? Which items would you be most interested in? What
would
> > > >>>>>>>> you be willing to pay? You will not be held to any of
this--it
> > > >>>>>>>> is just part of an exercise to see if what we all want can be
> > > >>>>>>>> done.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Wally Buck wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> If you are asking me if I have a problem purchasing Chinese
> > > >>>>>>>>> made boat parts from Stan ....If I place my order and send
> > > >>>>>>>>> payment to Stan the source doesn't concern me too much. I
> > > >>>>>>>>> would prefer to buy "USA" but I have owned many imported
cars.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> You also asked if price is holding me back from purchasing
> > > >>>>>>>>> boat goodies from GB. The answer is yes. I would love to
have
> > > >>>>>>>>> new cabin cushions, new cockpit cushions, cokcpit fill-in
> > > >>>>>>>>> cushions, pop-top enclosure, bimini. The boom room really
> > > >>>>>>>>> doesn't interest me. We overnight quite a bit. If it is
stormy
> > > >>>>>>>>> we go in cabin. If it is nice we like the view from cockpit.
> > > >>>>>>>>> We also swim and fish. I am trying to decide if I should
> > > >>>>>>>>> spend the money on my R22 or perhaps sell and use the cash
> > > >>>>>>>>> from all of those upgrades for .......
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> I forgot, add the battened IMF to my wish list as well.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Wally
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> From: Bill Effros <bill at effros.com>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: The Rhodes 22 mail list
> <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> To: R22 List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Chinese Boom Rooms?
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:21:37 -0400
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Brad Haslett emailed me off-list regarding our discussion
of
> > > >>>>>>>>>> boom rooms, etc. which he has been following while
> > > >>>>>>>>>> vacationing in China.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Brad asked if anyone would have an interest in his
exploring
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Chinese manufacture of Boom Rooms, Sails, Pop-Top
Enclosures,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Cockpit and Cabin Cushions, Cockpit Fill in Boards, -- all
> > > >>>>>>>>>> the little stuff the Chinese can make for a fraction of
what
> > > >>>>>>>>>> it costs to manufacture in the US.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> I have not asked Stan about this, and I don't think Brad
has
> > > >>>>>>>>>> either, however it goes without saying that if Stan doesn't
> > > >>>>>>>>>> like the idea, Brad is not going to do it. Stan would make
> > > >>>>>>>>>> money on every item made in China, and whatever he says is
> > > >>>>>>>>>> his cut, that's what he'll get. There will be no
negotiation
> > > >>>>>>>>>> on this.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> But before he even begins the project, Brad wants to know
how
> > > >>>>>>>>>> the ultimate consumers feel about this idea. If Brad can
set
> > > >>>>>>>>>> up manufacturing in China with Stan's approval, would
Rhodes
> > > >>>>>>>>>> owners buy the Chinese made products?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Stan would have to provide the original patterns and
> > > >>>>>>>>>> specifications, but that is all Stan would have to do.
Brad
> > > >>>>>>>>>> believes he can set up a reliable manufacturing operation
in
> > > >>>>>>>>>> China that will produce any of these products to Stan's
> > > >>>>>>>>>> satisfaction at a lower cost than Stan can get them
produced
> > > >>>>>>>>>> in the US.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> 5 of us indicated an interest in Boom Rooms. Me, Chris,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Dave, Bruce, and maybe Bob. (Did I miss anyone?) I would
be
> > > >>>>>>>>>> willing to be the guinea pig on this. How do the rest of
you
> > > >>>>>>>>>> feel? Bob, if we could bring the price down, at what price
> > > >>>>>>>>>> would you be a player?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> What about people who want Pop Top Enclosures, or Battened
> > > >>>>>>>>>> IMF sails, or cockpit fill in cushions? Is there a price
for
> > > >>>>>>>>>> these items that would prompt you to take money out of your
> > > >>>>>>>>>> pocket and put it on the table?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Look at Stan's options prices on his web site
> > > >>>>>>>>>> (http://www.rhodes22.com/super_options.html). Is there
> > > >>>>>>>>>> something you would actually buy if the price were lower?
If
> > > >>>>>>>>>> so, what would the price have to be?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Brad is returning to the US shortly, and doesn't have much
> > > >>>>>>>>>> time to see if he can set up something like this. If you
> > > >>>>>>>>>> think this is a terrible idea, please speak up quickly so
we
> > > >>>>>>>>>> all know where we stand.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> I think this is an interesting idea if Brad can actually do
> > > >>>>>>>>>> it. It is something we can all do to put more money in
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Stan's pocket right away, while buying parts for our boats
at
> > > >>>>>>>>>> a lower cost. It's a win-win...if Brad can pull it off.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Please note. Brad is a commercial airline pilot who no
> > > >>>>>>>>>> longer owns a Rhodes 22. There is nothing in this deal for
> > > >>>>>>>>>> him. He will always make more money flying an airplane
than
> > > >>>>>>>>>> getting involved in a crazy sailboat spare parts Chinese
> > > >>>>>>>>>> manufacturing scheme. He just happens to be in China right
> > > >>>>>>>>>> now, saw Stan's Lament, and asked if there was anything he
> > > >>>>>>>>>> could do to help.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Bill Effros
> > > >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> __________________________________________________
> > > >>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __________________________________________________
> > > >>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >>>
> > > >> __________________________________________________
> > > >> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
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