[Rhodes22-list] Boom Room Update Feb 3

Arthur H. Czerwonky czerwonky at earthlink.net
Sat Feb 4 16:23:19 EST 2006 

Slim,
My only concern with weight is the boom slides and the strength.  It might not be a problem adapting SS tubing @ 4#/6 feet.  Pretty much a judgement call.  I dont think about this with the fabric over the boom.  You might pick up a couple of the tubes from West and see what you thing.  I have laughed a dozen times about the hypothetical (sp?) 'drunk chicks' assembling the BR.  Funny.
Cheers,
Art

-----Original Message-----
>From: Slim <salm at mn.rr.com>
>Sent: Feb 4, 2006 3:49 PM
>To: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Boom Room Update Feb 3
>
>On 2/4/06 2:16 PM, "Arthur H. Czerwonky" <czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>My BR is made entirely of sailcloth except the screen panels and the clear
>front.  Although the roof is quite taught on it's frame there was one time
>in an extreme downpour when we had some pooling but it didn't leak.  We just
>pushed up with our hands and dumped the pool off from the inside.  I've
>heard it said that if you touch a pooled roof from the inside you'll start a
>weep. This hasn't been the case with mine.  I've never treated it with any
>water proofing and it has never leaked.  But if the roof went over the boom
>there would be less if any pooling to worry about.
>
>I'm not unsatisfied with my PVC frame but I'm not steadfastly defending it
>either.  If the frame could be simplified with say, the fore and aft boom
>yokes and port and starboard connecters, SS wouldn't be too heavy or
>expensive.  
>
>> Dave,
>> 
>> It is you due the thanks.
>> 
>> Leaking unacceptable?  Sunbrella a certain, even if not entirely tight.  Put a
>> puddle of water on a size of Sunbrella - note that some their fabric is not
>> awning quality - and it will not penetrate.  I would almost guarantee pooling
>> off of a PVC or aluminum frame, maybe not leaking depending on type and weight
>> of fabric.
>> 
>> Tight frame.  SS is rigid, aluminum, unless heavily reinforced will bend or
>> crimp under stress.  Try to bend the 7/8" SS tube and compare.
>> 
>> Sunbrella should be good for five years, and available in many colors.  I
>> would likely use West, look at Westmarine.com for ideas.  I use the Pacific
>> Blue for looks, but have not noticed any problem of heat buildup.  Having used
>> the Sunbrella so extensively as I have, I don't think I could recommend
>> otherwise.  
>> 
>> I think our pooling of ideas has come a long way, folks.
>> 
>> Art
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: David Bradley <dwbrad at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Feb 4, 2006 1:51 PM
>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Boom Room Update Feb 3
>>> 
>>> Art, thanks.
>>> 
>>> If the stock parts create the best frame, then great.  If one custom
>>> piece (like a central yoke) does a better job of integrating stock
>>> parts, maybe even better for GBI.  We'll see where the logic takes us.
>>> 
>>> On fabric, Stan's number one point was that it must not leak in the
>>> rain, especially because of pooling on the roof panels.  That's why he
>>> wants a frame strong enough to create the tension to stretch the
>>> fabric.  He thought Sunbrella is heavier and more expensive than
>>> needed -- I truly don't know.  I do think we want it to be a light
>>> color to provide some reflective property -- blue would look nice but
>>> create an oven I think.  Sail cloth was raised as an option only so
>>> long as the roof panel is treated to be waterproof.  Whether sail
>>> cloth or nylon, the roof panel would need to be treated every few
>>> years I'd guess.  Does Sunbrella also need to be treated?  Is nylon
>>> available in ligher colors?
>>> 
>>> More food for thought.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 2/4/06, Arthur H. Czerwonky <czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Dave,
>>>> 
>>>> Call it the K.I.S.S. approch - The BR should be repairable, adjustable by
>>>> the owner.  West stock parts are durable, returnable, available, and also a
>>>> bit pricey.  Do you see the Sunbrella logic?  I think sailcloth also could
>>>> become wetted and weep in a downpour.
>>>> 
>>>> You deserve special recognition as a coordinator and messenger on our ideas.
>>>> Thanks, you have me a little fired up!
>>>> 
>>>> Art
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: David Bradley <dwbrad at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Feb 4, 2006 9:58 AM
>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Boom Room Update Feb 3
>>>>> 
>>>>> Got it on the dimensions, and got your point on stock fittings.  Thanks,
>>>>> Art.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dave B.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2/4/06, Arthur H. Czerwonky <czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Dave,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> With a furled main, the top of the boom shouldn't need much tailoring, it
>>>>>> it a straight line.  My sail remains attached to the boom, no furling, so
>>>>>> therefore some contour.  This slight variation causes no problem as I use
>>>>>> Sunbrella, which will shed water in any shape.  That is a questionable
>>>>>> point with ripstop, which normally needs to be kept stretched in order for
>>>>>> moisture to roll off.  If the inside of a tent is touched it can weep,
>>>>>> therefore bring water into the tent - that also would be a problem.
>>>>>> Bottom line, don't lose sleep over contour.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The only reason for 5'6" width is to avoid a seam in the Sunbrella.  The
>>>>>> width can be greater, but most will want to have easy walking access onto
>>>>>> the deck.  The width I have used covers the cockpit well.  The 'stock'
>>>>>> parts have no lack of appeal.  The panels can be the same approach.  The
>>>>>> top 'roof' design is key.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Any problems suggested are welcomed, as this is the only way to refine, if
>>>>>> necessary.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Art
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: David Bradley <dwbrad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 3, 2006 10:28 PM
>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Boom Room Update Feb 3
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Art, thanks.  If I'm reading this correctly, your approach would be to
>>>>>>> build a frame out of standard SS lengths and fittings.  Sounds doable,
>>>>>>> but I'd like to hear from others as to whether a more tailored design
>>>>>>> (i.e., some custom pieces to fit over the boom and create the best
>>>>>>> contour) would be worth the extra effort.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Is a 5' wide roof wide enough?  I would think that it needs to be as
>>>>>>> wide as the gunwales.  Or maybe I'm not understanding your dimensions.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Stan's thought on the side panels is that they would all zip together
>>>>>>> then snap on place.  If the sides are a perfect rectangle and the side
>>>>>>> panels are divided into thirds, then the side pieces would all be
>>>>>>> interchangeable.  But it was Stan's sense that this would be hard to
>>>>>>> achieve since there just aren't that many straight lines.  But either
>>>>>>> way, there is still some sewing involved.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Again, I'm trying to convey Stan's ideas.  I think he wants a premium
>>>>>>> quality boom room "system" that will offer flexibility in
>>>>>>> configuration, and be better than an assembly of stock parts.
>>>>>>> Question for the buyers is -- do we want good enough from stock, or
>>>>>>> custom designed with a little extra R22 appeal.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2/3/06, Arthur H. Czerwonky <czerwonky at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dave,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> With 7/8 SS from West figure $45. for a 6' length, which I use.  Prop.
>>>>>>>> higher cost, based on length, which could be as long as 20', fore and
>>>>>>>> aft on each of two sides, therefore 2 each.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> With 7/8 SS a cross member, probably 5.5' in length to 'spread' the two
>>>>>>>> other tubes, above.  If the fore and aft dimension is 6' or less, one in
>>>>>>>> the middle can do well due to the SS rigidity.  If F&A is greater than
>>>>>>>> 6', additional braces are suggested, therefore 1 each or more.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 7/8 SS connector, various, therefore 6 each at about $15.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sunbrella top material, if used, 60" width of desired color @ about
>>>>>>>> $25/yard,  8'+  for a 6' long top, providing 1' surplus flap necessary
>>>>>>>> for front and back.  Therefore 3 yards @ about $25.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Labor cost not that bad.  Storage, assembly, and disassembly quick and
>>>>>>>> simple.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There, you have a nice BR or Bimini top, lacking only a few lines to tie
>>>>>>>> the four corners.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> See what I mean about putting together the BR for a very reasonable
>>>>>>>> cost?  We could make it more complicated and costly, but I can't imagine
>>>>>>>> why.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The side drapes are simpler still.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Your thoughts?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Art
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: David Bradley <dwbrad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 3, 2006 8:34 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Boom Room Update Feb 3
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Boom Room Project Update
>>>>>>>>> February 3, 2003
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I'll try to summaze where I think we are:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1.  Intellectual Property.  It's my proposal that we all assume we are
>>>>>>>>> working pro bono on a project for General Boats, and that whatever we
>>>>>>>>> create will turn into a GBI product for the Super Option List.  Stan
>>>>>>>>> will own all the IP.  He will price the product.  If he chooses to
>>>>>>>>> offer a discount to the boom room project participants, great.  If any
>>>>>>>>> of us chooses to lay out money to get a prototype built, we can work
>>>>>>>>> that out with the boss.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 2.  Basic Boom Room Design.  It sounds like we are converging on the
>>>>>>>>> key parameters as outlined, which are most simliar to Slim's boom room
>>>>>>>>> as designed by Stan.  Specifically, the boom room is not integrated
>>>>>>>>> with the Pop Top Enclosure; a roof panel is supported by the boom with
>>>>>>>>> the assistance of a rigid frame; side panels snap to gunwale inside
>>>>>>>>> rails and stays; front panel is forward of mast, aft of cabin hatches;
>>>>>>>>> interchangeable side panels allow flexible set up, with choices of
>>>>>>>>> solid, clear or screen panels.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 3.  One work stream is to lock onto best fabric(s).  Stan felt sail
>>>>>>>>> cloth would work, but is open to others.  He felt Sunbrella was
>>>>>>>>> heavier and more expensive than needed.  Rip-stop nylon has been
>>>>>>>>> suggested as well.  It seems that a next step would be to begin to
>>>>>>>>> collect prices on different materials.  Any thoughts on how to go
>>>>>>>>> about that?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 4.  Next work stream is the frame.  This is where Stan was never happy
>>>>>>>>> with his earlier efforts.  We have carbon fiber, aluminum, SS, and PVC
>>>>>>>>> as suggested options.  One aspect of this I haven't seen in the
>>>>>>>>> comments is the impact on visual design/aesthetics.  A metal frame can
>>>>>>>>> be fabricated with the necessary bends to create a rigid, sturdy but
>>>>>>>>> elegant design.  My gut feeling is that, with the highly evolved
>>>>>>>>> design solutions in the R-22, we should create a boom room frame that
>>>>>>>>> will enhance the lines of the boat -- even if it is just for camping
>>>>>>>>> at night.  Also, Stan's "yoke" idea (were the JPEGs of that attached
>>>>>>>>> in my post yesterday?) seems brilliant in a Spitzerian way.  The
>>>>>>>>> downward pressure from the side panels under tension will clamp the
>>>>>>>>> yoke to the boom and secure the roof.  We'll only get that kind of
>>>>>>>>> elegant solution with metal, I think.  Or with metal fittings and
>>>>>>>>> carbon/plastic rods.  If all metal, whether aluminum or SS is probably
>>>>>>>>> an economic decision.  I think I'd try for SS to avoid pitting even if
>>>>>>>>> more money and to have stronger fittings vs. aluminum corners.  For
>>>>>>>>> next steps here, I'd suggest we keep this debate going for a bit and
>>>>>>>>> then begin to explore vendors.  Does anyone have an idea for a metal
>>>>>>>>> bender that could work on a prototype?  Comments on the benefits of
>>>>>>>>> metal vs. plastic vs. carbon?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 5.  It seems that we need to get the frame worked out before we go to
>>>>>>>>> detailed specs and measurements on the fabric.  Though fabric
>>>>>>>>> selection/weights might influence frame selection, we're probably OK
>>>>>>>>> to assume lightest weight fabrics possible.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Comments?  Please let me know if I've not captured all the comments
>>>>>>>>> accurately.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dave Bradley
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> David Bradley
>>>>>>> 203.253.9973
>>>>>>> dwbrad at gmail.com
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> David Bradley
>>>>> 203.253.9973
>>>>> dwbrad at gmail.com
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> 
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> David Bradley
>>> 203.253.9973
>>> dwbrad at gmail.com
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>> 
>> __________________________________________________
>> Use Rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org, Help? www.rhodes22.org/list
>
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