[Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
Herb Parsons
hparsons at parsonsys.com
Wed Dec 31 13:34:53 EST 2008
Thanks Bill, for the history lesson. I remember when you and I got into
a ... discussion ... about the "right vs wrong" of duplicating Stan's
trailer designs. I maintained, at that time, that patent laws are such
that if a person builds something for their own personal use, not to
distribute an any way, they are free to copy any design they choose (and
that is technically correct). However, I did know or understand the
history of the list. Even more recently (until I read the post below) I
did not know the full history. Now your view (at that time) makes more
sense to me.
So, I'm probably a bit ambivalent on my view of what should happen (if
anyone even cares..., who knows?). In light of the "history", I would
say that it's "Stan's list". I would also say that someone offering to
maintain it for him, then deciding to take it in a direction contrary to
Stan's wishes would in fact be the one that is "hijacking" it.
At the same time, Stan DID give an "out" the list supporter-whatever, he
said he likes what it's been in the past, likes what it is now, and will
like what it becomes.
I think you folks that are demanding, or strongly suggesting,
restricting it, don't have the experience with such lists to know the
slow death you would be condemning the list to. However, I think I'm
going to just sit back and watch the show for a while.
But, I'll STFU for a while with one parting comment. I've been in IT for
a LONG time, and using computers since before some of the folks on here
were born. My delete key has always worked well, and even in the days of
286 machines, it worked very fast. I frankly don't understand the fuss.
Ya'll have fun now.
Bill Effros wrote:
> Jb,
>
> Michael built and maintained Stan's website. In return, Stan would tow
> Michael's boat to Edenton every winter, upgrade it, install "test"
> equipment, bottom paint it, and get it back to Michael in time for an
> early launch.
>
> At some point, Michael suggested the formation of an email group so that
> people could ask each other all the questions that Stan couldn't
> possibly respond to...even if he owned a computer, and knew how to use it.
>
> Michael put links on Stan's website so both existing owners and newbies
> could find "da list". (Remember, Google is only 10 years old -- it was
> difficult for anyone other than a computer geek to find anything on the
> Internet, and email lists were not indexed.) Almost everyone who got on
> "da list" at that time was sent here by Stan, both from his website and
> from in-person recommendations both before and after boat purchases.
>
> I know I got here because Stan suggested I could learn a lot from people
> on the list. I know many others who got here the same way.
>
> Michael is one of the smartest people on the planet. In the early days,
> he would answer 9 out of 10 questions asked. He talked to Stan
> regularly, and when he didn't know the answer, and felt it was a good
> question, he would call Stan after hours and come up with the technical
> information the rest of us sought.
>
> We hopped onto the Sailnet list server at some point. They wanted to be
> a web portal for sailers. They offered free list-hosting. As they grew
> they encountered growing pains. They switched software, and lost
> everyone on the list in the process. Those of us who cared, contacted
> everyone else back-channel and told them what had happened and what they
> had to do to get back on the list. I believe we had 34 members at that
> point.
>
> Then Sailnet started selling things, and made a rule that no one else
> could sell anything on any list they hosted. Then they started
> monitoring lists to enforce the rule, and bouncing out people who
> violated their rule.
>
> We started looking for another way to run our list, and Michael came up
> with the Mailman Program which he hosted and maintained as administrator.
>
> At some point Stan learned to use a computer, and started providing
> information directly to the list. What a treat! When somebody got
> something wrong, or had a better way to solve a problem, the guy who
> built the boat would actually discuss the issue on an open forum!
>
> Michael was plugged into the blogging community before anyone used the
> word "blog". He would get jokes, and "insider info" and post it to the
> list long before any other sailor had access to what he posted. Some
> complained that it was "off-topic" but Stan always said he loved it, and
> didn't give a damn if anyone didn't think it was funny, or disagreed
> with anyone else's political views. And, he said, living in Edenton, he
> wasn't locally exposed to a lot of cultural stuff he took for granted
> living near NYC.
>
> "Bring it on" said Stan, "and don't worry about killing a boat
> sale--this is much more fun--be yourself--respect each other--Michael
> taught me how to use the delete key."
>
> Food fights would erupt from time to time over the exact same issues.
> Politics and Religion were both banned at some point, so people started
> inserting their political views in the form of often vicious jokes. The
> only way anyone could object to the joke was to explain it in political
> terms. The prohibition against Politics was dropped with the mandate
> that all political discussion had to be preceded on the subject line by
> the word Politics:
>
> How to use filters to toss all email labeled "Politics:" into anyone's
> junk folder was repeatedly explained so that anyone not wishing to see
> this stuff would never even know others on the list were actively
> discussing these topics.
>
> Later, a rule was instituted mandating that Jokes: also appears on the
> subject line when the content is jokes.
>
> ...
>
> At some point the list turned on Stan. It wasn't anyone's fault, it was
> just the normal evolution of the Internet.
>
> Some of the people who had been with the list for a long time opted to
> purchase other boats. They started singing the praises of their boats,
> on Stan's list, and urging others to trade in Stan's boat for one
> bigger, or better, or more ostentatious.
>
> Then people who would never have been able to find each other started
> selling boats directly to each other, and cutting Stan out of the middle
> -- "Stan offered me $10,000 for this boat, so you know he's going to
> sell it for $20,000 -- I'll sell it to anyone on the list for $15,000."
>
> Then people started offering to fabricate parts for Stan's boat--"Send
> me the specifications on that trailer, and I'll make one for you for 1/2
> what Stan would charge."
>
> Over time they hijacked Stan's list. Stan objected several times, and
> many people on the list went out of their way to only buy through Stan.
> But, in the end, Stan stopped participating on a regular basis, and took
> the list off his web site.
>
> But, it's still Stan's list, and Stan is still the common link for most
> of us. He can't use it as a sales tool anymore, but he still can have
> fun with old friends...just as it says in the charter.
>
> I have posted the charter below so all can see what they signed up for,
> if they never took the time to read it previously.
>
> In prior years, Michael would post the Charter at this point--he wrote
> it, but he seems disinclined to do so, so here it is:
>
> *CHARTER*: *rhodes22*-list at ...
> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=0>
>
> The *rhodes*-list at ...
> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=1>
> group will be open to discussion of all
> subjects specifically referring to *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*
> sailors. The focus of this group includes, but is not limited to:
>
> * Encouraging the understanding and discussion of *Rhodes* sailboats or
> *Rhodes* sailors, in the many ways people wish to define it.
>
> * Acting as a source of information for *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes*
> sailors worldwide and for people planning to buy/sell/repair/learn
> about *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors.
>
> * Providing a forum for the development and promotion *Rhodes* sailboats
> or *Rhodes* sailors' culture, history, traditions and economy.
>
> * Any other subject that might be found at a sailor's bar or the
> Clubhouse Bar, Including *Rhodes* sailboats or *Rhodes* sailors' travels,
> events, family, jokes, quotations, pets, etc.
>
> * The level of discussion does not have to be fit for a child, but
> some good taste is expected.
>
> Binaries and Formatting: The posting of encoded binaries (e.g.
> pictures, compressed files, etc.) to *rhodes*-list at ...
> <http://www.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=17019026&i=2>
> is not
> allowed, the list server will remove them. Please use mixed case when
> posting (Upper and lower case letters), typing words in uppercase
> means you are SHOUTING.
>
> Quoting: Place new material at the top of the post and quote what you
> are replying to below. That makes it simple to find out what is being
> said. You are encouraged to edit down the quoted material.
>
> HTML mail: Allot of the email programs (Netscape and outlook) that can
> send their email with embedded HTML. Embedded HTML can cause some of
> the list members to have trouble reading their mail due to "browser
> wars", not reading their mail with a web browser and double messages
> in digest mode. Member are encouraged to set their programs to send
> "text" email.
>
> Subject Line: Please set or change the subject line to reflect the
> true subject of the post. for example "Subject: anchors" might be
> turned into "Subject: gastank was anchors". If a joke (or any
> questionable material) is being posted please indicate it on the
> subject line, for example "Subject: Monday's Humor (jokes)"
>
> Netiquette: Posts to the group are expected to be considerate of other
> readers. Personal abuse, flames, and obscenities are *not*
> appreciated; but we are sailors.......
>
> Anonymous email: It is expected that users will provide their name in
> the email and will sign same. We like to know who we're talking to.
>
> Social Interaction/Manners: To a certain extent, the interaction is
> about what you would expect in any informal social setting, for
> example, a bar. It is recommended that you get to know people first
> and introduce yourself (about the same social rules that you would use
> to meet any new group of people). There is a high level of chitchat on
> the list, and what you might think is insulting to a group or region
> might only be people kidding each other after knowing them for years.
> As in any bar, the subjects of politics and religion can lead to
> heated augments and bar fights. These might be best avoided.
>
> The need to participate: It is recognized that a group is only whoever
> post to it, no more and no less. We can only talk about what people
> post about. You earn respect on the list by postings and trying to
> help each other, you can not demand it. Most sailing topics we have
> talked about already, We chit chat in the mean time waiting to answer
> questions or a new subject/story. If you want to know something,
> please post it, the more detail the better. If someone is trying to
> help you please answer their reasonable questions. If you can help
> someone, again post it, Try to repay the knowledge you gained.
>
> Bill Effros
>
> Jb wrote:
>
>> why do keep saying this is Stans list?
>> Jb
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill Effros" <bill at effros.com>
>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 8:53 PM
>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Who Made You the Jello Sheriff?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> Who made you the Jello Sheriff?
>>>
>>> This is Stan's list, not yours, and he just told us he doesn't believe a
>>> Jello Sheriff is required.
>>>
>>> Shall I tell you who I think is being a PITA?
>>>
>>> Do you think it will improve the list if everyone conforms to your views
>>> of who is using "mean sprite"? Only people who submit jokes you find
>>> funny can remain on the list? If you don't laugh--they're out!
>>>
>>> Whatever happened to that rule about throwing people off the list if
>>> they don't own a Rhodes-22?
>>>
>>> How about syntax rules, and spelling rules? That should be fun.
>>>
>>> Better drop the rule about people on ego trips.
>>>
>>> Of course, this charter change must be submitted to the entire list as
>>> per our charter. Does Rummy still get a vote? How about Ben? How
>>> about people under your review?
>>>
>>> LOL,
>>>
>>> Your dear friend,
>>>
>>> Bill Effros
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> michael meltzer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> He is the working idea.
>>>>
>>>> 1) Is the problem is not so much the off subject post, as long as
>>>> the
>>>> are entertaining there is no real issue, funny, informative, nice..
>>>>
>>>> 2) The problem is the people using "mean sprite" , pounding on
>>>> people,
>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by changing the view
>>>> of
>>>> the members, being a PITA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To that end.
>>>>
>>>> 1) in the short: people using "mean sprite" , pounding on people,
>>>> people on ego trips that they must change the world by changing the view
>>>> of
>>>> the members. Can and will be suspended buy me and john at our whim, using
>>>> current tools. Willing to listen to some group feedback but really the
>>>> right to suspend and remove PITA's
>>>>
>>>> 2) in the long term both me and john no not have the time for this.
>>>> Thinking along the lines of a "trusted" group of people can numerated a
>>>> poster for suspend/remove/band that a larger group of list members can
>>>> vote
>>>> on(the jury, maybe post #/length of time on the list weighted). Web based
>>>> system. Me and john then become the "apples board. The real question in
>>>> most
>>>> cases would be are you a PITA and worth it
>>>>
>>>> 3) there is a question about a wiki(ben), we tried it once but let's
>>>> try again, it could have broad applies
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe or for help with using the mailing list go to
>>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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--
Herb Parsons
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