[Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and elimination of compressi...

Tue Jun 2 19:55:29 EDT 2009

Dave,

 The idea of "hand tight" can lead to much discussion of just what is hand
tight? With an nod to jimtracyjohnston and testosterone I suggest just "hand
tight" leaves way to much variance for comfort.
This is why I decided on the loos gauge to give me at least a base line for
reliable rig tuning. I've worked with my hands since I've been a child and I
can easily get 2-3 times what I have now for wire tension by using my hands
only on the turn buckles. 240 lbs on the side stays is approx. 11% of the
wires breaking strength which is lower than Roger Ps' suggested settings for
his boat. I have read several articles on rig tuning and some go as high as
15% of break point. The baby stays at 120 are half that.  Remember that all
the stays are at an angle to the mast and 120 lbs wire tension is not 120
lbs downward force some of that force is also pulling sideways as well. This
applies to the side stays as well the load is applied after the spreaders
change the wires' angle to the mast top. 

John Shulick

David Culp-3 wrote:
> 
> John:
> I have a Loos gauge that I use to balance the rig as well.  I think you
> have
> your rig too tight based on the numbers you quoted.  In fact, I don't pay
> much attention to the numbers I get on a particular shroud except as a
> comparison to their opposite counterpart.
> 
> Stan has advised that the factory recommendation is "hand tight" on the
> shrouds.  I would have to look at the Loos instruction pamplet again but I
> believe that the recommendation from Loos is that the lee shrouds should
> be
> at "zero" tension when the boat is healed over at its max angle.  Let's
> call
> "zero" as being slack and anything less then that being "loose".  After
> raising the mast, I go out and sail the rig a few times watching the
> shrouds.  At max heal angle with all sails hoisted, I just begin to see a
> little looseness, just slightly beyond slack so that I can see it.  I
> can't
> get there with merely hand tight usually.  Don't tell Stan, but I hold the
> top of the turnbuckle with a small wrench and give it about 1/2 or a full
> turn tighter with my hand to get it where I want it.  Stan's hands maybe
> stronger then mine is how I rationalize it.
> 
> Anyway, my rig is still basically "hand tight" but meets the Loos
> philosophy
> of not going too loose and mast pumping.  My numbers are a lot less then
> yours.  Who knows what kind of a rig Loos based their numbers on?
>  Personally,  I would not use their recommendations unless I had a reason
> and a keel-stepped mast and then I would loosen it every time I berthed
> the
> boat.  I have already observed first hand what an over-tightened rig can
> do
> to a cabin-stepped mast.  Maybe your top is OK now, but what about the
> chain-plates that you can't see?   I think Loos is good for racers and
> anyone else demanding consistent, peak performance and willing to pay for
> the consequences.  I'm not sure that our boat qualifies as a "racer"
> though
> I do pretty well against all the comparable ones on my lake even at hand
> tight.
> 
> I don't remember my Loos numbers but I think I am less then half of what
> you
> are at, maybe 180 at most.  I'll check them if you are interested in
> knowing.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:30:02 EDT
> From: R22RumRunner at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Re design of Rhodes Interior and
>        elimination of  compressi...
> To: rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
> Message-ID: <c4f.468f947f.3756916a at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> Having no experience with the loos gauge puts me at a disadvantage. I can
> tell you that my method of testing is done by touch. My stays are taught,
> but  not tight. I test each of them until I think they are all about the
> same,
> being  careful not to over tighten. I start with each turn buckle at the
> same point and  then I and another person count rotations making sure they
> are
> the same. I  repeat this with each one. My leeward stays are always loose
> when the sails are  filled. That's the way they are supposed to be.
> Roger was a wonderful resource on this list, but please keep in mind that
> he is an engineer. My experience with engineers, including Roger, is that
> they  have an extreme tendency to over think things and make them much
> more
> difficult  than they need be.
> I would be concerned about the crack that has widened. The crack tells me
> that at one time the stays were to tight otherwise the crack never would
> have  appeared. Keep in mind the geometry of the deck and hull and how
> they
> all
> work  together.
> Good luck and I'm envious that you are out sailing and I'm waiting for
> paint to dry.
> 
> Rummy
> 
> 
> In a message dated 6/2/2009 9:57:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
> 
> 
> Rummy,
> 
> Glad to see you have a lake with water and a  shinny new boat to play with
> (nice color) hope the weather cooperates.
> The loos gauge applies a transverse tension on the wire being tested.  The
> wire is pulled with a set amount of force and the amount of deflection  is
> measured on a scale which translates to lbs of force. I take the  accuracy
> of
> those numbers with a teaspoon of salt but to obtain the same  number on
> all
> four baby stays and the 2 side stays indicate balanced  tension throughout
> the rigging system. I order to get a consistent reading  you must try to
> measure each wire at the same point on its length as close  to the center
> point as can be safely reached by standing on the  deck.
> 
> John Shulick
> 
> 
> 
> R22RumRunner wrote:
>>
>>  John,
>> Your numbers from the loos gauge mean absolutely nothing to me,  but your
> 
>> comment about a 1000 pounds of pressure on the mast  support troubles me.
>> Anyone  else have any thoughts or  experience with the loos gauge?
>>
>> Rummy
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 6/1/2009 11:01:33 P.M. Eastern  Daylight Time,
>> jsbudda at verizon.net writes:
>>
>>
>> Hi  all,
>>
>> The boat has been in the water for  three weeks now and the rigging  has
>> bin
>> tightened  gradually to what I consider normal. In that time the  boat
>> has
>>  been hit by several cold fronts sweeping through the area with  winds 
>> of
>> 30
>> mph with gusts to 50. I've been out sailing (10 to 15  with  gusts)
> trying
>> out
>> my new mainsail from sailcare.  and can report no problems  aside from
>> getting
>> used to  some squeaks and groans as the 34 year old cabin  adjusts to the
>>  new
>> load. The interior picture shows the arch under a mast  load  of approx
>> 1000
>> lbs.
>> 120 on the baby stays  and 240 on  the side stays as measured on the loos
>> gage.
>>
>> John  Shulick
>>  http://www.nabble.com/file/p23825735/DSCF0298.jpeg
>>
>>
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