[Rhodes22-list] Sailing Upwind

Michael D. Weisner mweisner at ebsmed.com
Thu Nov 4 15:24:33 EDT 2010


Ben,

I mostly fly electric RC planes now, although I have an electric RC 
sailboat.  It used to be fun to sail it behind my R22 when the seas were 
very calm.

One of our club Grummanites has a very large carrier that he "sails" on Lake 
Ronkonkoma (on LI),  I have done touch and goes on the deck with a small 
ducted fan "jet" for some great photos.  Not enough room for landing (no 
arrester wire either) or taking off for these underpowered planes.  If I can 
find the photos I will post to the list (real photos, need to scan them in 
someday).  I only wish that we had videos but we were too far ahead of the 
technology (before battery powered camcorders).


Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "BenCittadino"  Thursday, November 04, 2010 2:58 PM
>
> MIke;
>
> I love that model. How did you come across it? Very impressive. Are you a
> modeler?
>
> BenC
>
> R22MikeW wrote:
>>
>> Ben,
>>
>> Most life lines are too low anyway to keep a 6' adult on board.
>>
>> Now, how about increasing the width of the walkway to accommodate a 
>> walker
>> ...
>>
>> Mike
>> s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>> Nissequogue River, NY
>>
>> From: "BenCittadino"  Thursday, November 04, 2010 2:12 PM
>>>
>>> Rummy & Dave;
>>>
>>> I remember being taught in the USN to NEVER sit upon, lean against, or
>>> even
>>> touch the life line railings aboard ship. The only time anyone should
>>> touch
>>> them is when maintaining or repairing them. The idea is they are only
>>> there
>>> as a last resort and if you have to grab them you shouldn't be out there
>>> to
>>> begin with.
>>>
>>> I would never tell anyone not to have them because if they keep you from
>>> going overboard only once in twenty years they can be worth the money,
>>> but
>>> remember they are not built for routine daily stress and strain, or
>>> reliance. You can look at them, but don't touch them 'till you really
>>> need
>>> them.
>>>
>>> BenC
>>> s/v susan kay ('93 recycled '08) (no railings)
>>>
>>> R22RumRunner wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dave,
>>>> Unless you have small children, I see no need for the railings. Just my
>>>> 2
>>>> cents worth. I like to keep things both simple and clean.
>>>>
>>>> Rummy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 11/4/2010 1:01:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>> rhodes22dave at gmail.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> Rummy, I  think the railings are okay.  They make great hangers for the
>>>> fenders  at the dock.  [?]
>>>> I could do without them, but my wife likes  them.  They are handy to
>>>> lean
>>>> against a little, for balance, when  cleaning or doing various chores
>>>> about
>>>> the boat.
>>>> When under sail,  actually they don't get in the way or interfere with
>>>> the
>>>> 175.  They  virtually touch the outer stays, and the sail could not go
>>>> in
>>>> further  anyway.
>>>> The one inconvenience is that the genoa sheet can, in the process  of
>>>> tacking, get wedged in between the stay and the rail, requiring me to
>>>> go
>>>> forward and free it, or to jiggle the line and try to fool with it
>>>> remotely.
>>>> However, I would be interested in the views of others that have  rails.
>>>> I
>>>> was planning to order them on my new R22, but I could be  persuaded
>>>> either
>>>> way, if the Commandant--my wife--could be persuaded (an  unlikely
>>>> event).
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 7:17 AM,  <R22RumRunner at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dave,
>>>>> The fact that  you have the side railings makes your boat a completely
>>>>> different  animal. I have never sailed on one with the railings, but I
>>>>> can
>>>>>  imagine the problems you will encounter with them. You might ask for
>>>> advice
>>>>> from
>>>>> someone who has the railings. Personally, I don't  like them on a 22
>>>>> foot
>>>>> sailboat. In fact, I don't even like them on a  larger boat, but I
>>>>> understand
>>>>> why  they might be needed.  Your inability to make the 175 work for 
>>>>> you
>>>>> is
>>>>> directly  related  to the railings. You might want to consider
>>>>> replacing
>>>>> your
>>>>>  furling drum  with one that allows a complete sail change on the 
>>>>> fly,
>>>>> unlike
>>>>> the GB  furler.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Rummy.......still waiting for the shuttle to go up.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In  a message dated 11/3/2010 12:55:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>>>  rhodes22dave at gmail.com writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Lee,  thanks for your  comments.  I may give you a call, as I will 
>>>>> have
>>>> to
>>>>> decide  which sail to put on my R22 this time, as compared to the 175 
>>>>> I
>>>>>   have
>>>>> been using.  Last weekend the wind was mild but  steady--about 5  mph.
>>>>>  Using
>>>>> the full 175 was very  pleasant.  But in gusty or  changeable winds
>>>>> (our
>>>>>  most
>>>>> common lake condition), and where sailing close  hauled is  important,
>>>>> the
>>>>> 175
>>>>> is simply too much sail area too far  forward,  and even when largely
>>>>> furled,
>>>>> the boat doesn't  point well--worse than all  the other boats that I
>>>>> see.
>>>>> Unless  the genoa is furled way in, I don't see  how I could lead the
>>>> sheets
>>>>> through the inner guides on the deck, inside  the  shrouds.  I was
>>>> surprised
>>>>> that you mentioned that the  smaller  genoa would be closer to the
>>>>> deck.
>>>> I
>>>>> haven't seen  one, but I assumed  that the 130/140/150 sizes would
>>>>> simply
>>>> be
>>>>>  made in their smaller sizes by  shortening or raising the foot of the
>>>> sail.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also use my full 175 less  than 20% of the time,  and when I am on a
>>>> reach
>>>>> in mild weather conditions,  it is a  very nice sail.  So if you can
>>>>> keep
>>>> a
>>>>> decent sail shape and   still furl it way in for other conditions and
>>>>> re-route
>>>>> the  sheets to one of  the inner paths, then it's probably a good
>>>>>  multi-purpose compromise for a  sail.  80% of the time, I have the
>>>>> genoa
>>>>> furled in to greater or  lesser degrees, and I am telling  myself that
>>>> next
>>>>> time I am going to have a  smaller  sail.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also have the steel side rails, which are very   convenient, but the
>>>>> sheets
>>>>> do often catch between the rails  and the stays  on tacking, and I 
>>>>> have
>>>>> to
>>>>> go
>>>>> forward and  free them up.  This is  avoided by furling in
>>>>> substantially
>>>>>  just
>>>>> before tacking, and then letting  the sail back out, but a  smaller
>>>>> sail
>>>>> would
>>>>> be just that much more   convenient.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 2:33  PM, KUHN, LELAND  <LKUHN at cnmc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >  Dave,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > "I have  never
>>>>> > liked the 175  genoa very much because I can't sail nearly as  close
>>>>> > to
>>>>> >  the
>>>>> > wind as any of hundreds of other sailboats on our   lake."
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I don't think a smaller Genoa will help you  sail closer  to the 
>>>>> > wind
>>>>> as
>>>>> > much as re-routing your  sheets.  You still won't  be able to pull
>>>>> > your
>>>>> > jib or  smaller Genoa closer to the center of your  boat if your
>>>>> > sheets
>>>>>  > are run outside of the outer  shroud.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > As  for sail shape, you can pull a 175% Genoa just as  tight as a
>>>> smaller
>>>>> > Genoa.  A smaller Genoa won't have as much   rolled-up bulk around
>>>>> the
>>>>> > furler and the sail will be closer to  the  deck, which will 
>>>>> > probably
>>>>> > improve performance slightly  if you're on a  close reach.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The primary reason  I would opt for a smaller  Genoa is because I 
>>>>> > use
>>>> the
>>>>> > full  175% sail less than 20% of the  time.  When I do use the full
>>>> 175%  I
>>>>> > swear I'll never go with  anything smaller.
>>>>>  >
>>>>> > Feel free to give me a call if you'd like to  discuss  upwind
>>>> performance.
>>>>> > 202.476.5369
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  Good  luck!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Lee
>>>>> > 1986  Rhodes22  AT EASE
>>>>> > Kent  Island, MD
>>>>> >
>>>>>  >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >   From: rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org
>>>>> >   [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> > Rhodes22Dave
>>>>>  >  Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 11:51 PM
>>>>> > To:   rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list]  Sailing  Upwind
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Interesting. I  will try this.  I also  thought that re-routing the
>>>> genoa
>>>>>  > sheets inside the shrouds would just  get the sail caught.  I  have
>>>> never
>>>>> > liked the 175 genoa very much  because I can't  sail nearly as close
>>>>> > to
>>>>> > the
>>>>> > wind as any of   hundreds of other sailboats on our lake.  I can do 
>>>>> > a
>>>>> >   little
>>>>> > better by furling in the genoa to a much smaller exposed  sail
>>>> area--but
>>>>> > at a
>>>>> > cost of sail shape with  all the furling.   I may get a second R22
>>>>> and
>>>> am
>>>>> >  thinking of getting a smaller genoa--or  adding the self-tending
>>>>> > jib.
>>>>> > But
>>>>> > what you suggest might be a  solution,  at least for long tacks.
>>>>> > Dave
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Ben  Cittadino  wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > I had two days in a  row on Sandy Hook Bay in  NJ this weekend, 
>>>>> > > and
>>>>> > > I
>>>>> >  want
>>>>> > > to report that I had a  pleasing experience by  "finally"
>>>>> re-routing
>>>> the
>>>>> > > Jib (175 Genny)  sheets inside  the outer shrouds to try for 
>>>>> > > better
>>>>> > upwind
>>>>> >  >  sailing. I have to say that I didn't expect much difference, but
>>>>> I
>>>> was
>>>>> >  > delighted to get inside 45 degrees at last. I  obviously didn't
>>>>> let
>>>>>  the
>>>>> > > Genny out to the full  175, but at 100 we flew along and I  felt
>>>>> > > like
>>>> I
>>>>> > > could  make real headway upwind. I had delayed trying  the new
>>>>> route
>>>> for
>>>>>  > > the sheets because I thought the sail would get  all hung up in
>>>>> the
>>>>> > > shrouds, but it's become no big deal. Try it,   you'll like it.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>>  > >  BenCittadino
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > S/V Susan Kay  ('93 recycled  '08)
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >  >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >  >
>>>>> >  >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >  >
>>>>> >  >
>>>>> > >  __________________________________________________
>>>>> >   >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>>  > View this message in  context:
>>>>> >   http://old.nabble.com/Sailing-Upwind-tp29517214p30044777.html
>>>>> >  Sent  from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>  >
>>>>> >   __________________________________________________
>>>>> > To   subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>>>>> >   http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>>>> >
>>>>>  > For the  list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>>>> archives
>>>>> > go to  http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>  >  __________________________________________________
>>>>>  >
>>>>> >   __________________________________________________
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>>>>> >   http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>>>> >
>>>>>  > For the  list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
>>>> archives
>>>>> go
>>>>> > to  http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>  >  __________________________________________________
>>>>>  >
>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>  To  subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>>>>>  http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>>>>
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>>>>> archives
>>>> go
>>>>> to  http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>>>  __________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>  __________________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>> archives
>>>>> go
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://old.nabble.com/Sailing-Upwind-tp29517214p30134738.html
>>> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
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>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
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>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://old.nabble.com/Sailing-Upwind-tp29517214p30135129.html
> Sent from the Rhodes 22 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> __________________________________________________
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> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go 
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
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